Thanks Duke, that was interesting! Fun with a different view of it.With your speakers, it is a fixed setting with a passive crossover filter or you have the option to regulate it, similar like Snell Type E / III? Do you have a picture of your speakers? It would be exciting to see.
Pretty cool! Would be fascinating to listen to these. I assume the other three cups are direct access to power the front tweeter, woofer, and rear tweeter? Assuming there is a crossover inside what type is it? Are all four ports for the woofer chamber? The cabinet is asymmetric for the rear tweeter- was this the right speaker of the pair?Level and "tilt" controls for the rear-firing horn are in the large rectangular cup in the upper-left quadrant of the rear of the cabinet.
Pretty cool! Would be fascinating to listen to these. I assume the other three cups are direct access to power the front tweeter, woofer, and rear tweeter?
Assuming there is a crossover inside what type is it?
Are all four ports for the woofer chamber?
The cabinet is asymmetric for the rear tweeter- was this the right speaker of the pair?
I haven't heard the AN's but I intend to, but be aware that this style of speaker has been making a comeback in the form of the Devore's, and recently news to me, an Austrian company called Tenner and Friedl, in addition to the Zu's and AN's. Somewhere I read a sound theory assessment that suggested the large flat face of the box with centrally located tweeter had a purpose and could actually sound better for some reason. Supposedly this person argued that the narrower cabinets were not to reduce diffraction but rather to take up less space in people's living rooms. Note that there are a number speakers with huge soundstages like Klipschorns that have enormous front faces (granted - horns). I'm not saying I know what I'm talking about but I would prefer to see someone show data and analysis on the differences rather than simply conclude, "everyone is building narrower speakers today, they must be better". I wish I could find that article...No one should design two way speakers with an 8” crossed over to a soft dome tweeter no waveguide and a wide cabinet with protruding edges ?
Btw I remember when Audio Note was beginning to make knockoffs of the original snell designs , they where not much more expensive . But it quickly spiralled out of control AN speaker may look like an EII but everything is changed and ridiculously expensive. Knowing that AN is some kind of anti hifi ( the products seem to get worse and more expensive over time ) I would not bet on them being any better.
Somewhere I read a sound theory assessment that suggested the large flat face of the box with centrally located tweeter had a purpose and could actually sound better for some reason. Supposedly this person argued that the narrower cabinets were not to reduce diffraction but rather to take up less space in people's living rooms.
Supposedly this person argued that the narrower cabinets were not to reduce diffraction but rather to take up less space in people's living rooms.
Are you sure what type of speaker element it is? Not that it might in itself play a major role, if you are happy and play with them, that is enough, in itself. But the bass element has foam edges. Sooner or later they have to be replaced. There are refoam kits. Try to find as close to the original as possible. Duke (in this thread) can certainly tell you about it (in case it becomes relevant).Just boosting this thread with my minority opinion of these speakers. I still have an original pair of E/IIIs that I bought new around 1991. For my unprofessional ears these speakers have stood the test of time although I mainly use them for general TV watching these days. They are relatively accurate, relatively flat, have few objectional flaws, play with speed and liveliness without any harshness, and have a great depth of soundstage. The Vifa tweeters and Scanspeak woofers were (and still are) high quality components that Snell accurately matched. They are easy to drive with low power amps, play fairly loud without distortion, and have respectable bass extension. Where they are weak is a bit too much warmth in the low bass, some distortion (muddiness) in the low bass, poor directionality and imaging, are sensitive to wall placement behind them, should really be up on "shorty" stands as mentioned above, and they are a tad soft in the highs compared to some modern speakers that are very precise and detailed.
But you also have to put them in historic context. In the 90's I listened to all the common stuff that was in audio stores at the time - Polk, Infinity, Paradigm, B&W, Boston Acoustics, and who knows what else that I've forgotten. Frankly, nothing else could touch these for the money. Granted I could have got some used electrostatics or JBLs or maybe Klipsch but they were rare and I didn't know to look for them. If I more than doubled the spend I thought the nicer Paradigm's were better, or the 800-series B&W's of the day, but those were major spends. Also, because of the efficiency I could drive them with a plucky little Onkyo 80 Wpc receiver instead of some 200 wpc NAD's or Adcom's. As a side note they have beautiful matching walnut veneers you rarely see today (although are basically just large boxes). Today they of course are easily bested by speakers under 2k and perhaps under 1k depending on your criteria, but when you find them in good condition on the used market at under $500 they are once again a bargain. Unfortunately sometimes people refoamed them after the woofer spider has been damaged or use inappropriate foam and the performance is degraded. Virtually every original example has had all it's foam rot off the woofer. Mine have newish OEM woofers direct from Atomic with matched crossover components (a coil and a capacitor, iirc).
Thanks Duke, fun with pictures! They clearly look interesting. When you designed them,did you do so based on a generic idea or are they tailored to be placed in your listening room? With the possibility of placement, type of walls, reflex sound waves, reverb and so on that you have in your listening room?Sorry I forgot to come back and do this!
Here are pictures of the front and back of one of my speakers:
View attachment 208020View attachment 208021
Level and "tilt" controls for the rear-firing horn are in the large rectangular cup in the upper-left quadrant of the rear of the cabinet.
I didn't speak clearly. The original foam on mine rotted a while ago. Rather than replace the foam I actually bought completely new woofers from Atomic Hifi and installed them with the matching replacement crossover components that they sent me. This was just after Snell was finally completely shut down. Atomic is run by an ex-Snell engineer and was the official warranty and parts vendor when Snell shut down. Mine sound great. I also have a complete replacement set of front and rear tweeters that I bought "just in case" a couple years ago (also component matched from Atomic). Maybe I'll install them at some point, haha.Are you sure what type of speaker element it is? Not that it might in itself play a major role, if you are happy and play with them, that is enough, in itself. But the bass element has foam edges. Sooner or later they have to be replaced. There are refoam kits. Try to find as close to the original as possible. Duke (in this thread) can certainly tell you about it (in case it becomes relevant).
Here's a refoam kit:
This kit will fit the Snell Type E III & Type E IV speakers that use the Vifa M21WN-07 4ohm woofer and the Snell Type E II speakers that use the Seas H334 CA21FE / B-SN and H170 4 ohm woofer.
Wavegudie, or horn itself is not a requirement. It may not be necessary if the baffle is wide enough. In addition, waveguide is a matter of exactly that, creating a guide of sound, a directivity. Then whether you like it or not is more a matter of taste.Had Snell EII I think , then they got thinner and longer and not so wide and they actually got worse ? Hard to remember.
Had a lot of fun with them easy to drive .
But the design of EII is extremely dated by today’s standard at best experimental, wonder what peter snell could have done with today’s knowledge and research ?
No one should design two way speakers with an 8” crossed over to a soft dome tweeter no waveguide and a wide cabinet with protruding edges ?
But by all means if find a pair in a second hand store , have fun .
Btw I remember when Audio Note was beginning to make knockoffs of the original snell designs , they where not much more expensive . But it quickly spiralled out of control AN speaker may look like an EII but everything is changed and ridiculously expensive. Knowing that AN is some kind of anti hifi ( the products seem to get worse and more expensive over time ) I would not bet on them being any better.
Darn the specs on that Heco, looks like I speaker I would really like, could be great with a tube amp with sensitivity at 98dB, but also capable of being driven with 350W RMS. Unfortunately according to their website they seem to have discontinued the entire Direkt series. Rats. Probably very, very rare used in the US.
Thanks Duke, fun with pictures! They clearly look interesting. When you designed them,did you do so based on a generic idea or are they tailored to be placed in your listening room? With the possibility of placement, type of walls, reflex sound waves, reverb and so on that you have in your listening room?
Interesting! Thank you for the explanation.The design is intended to work in a wide variety of rooms, and over a wide range of speaker-to-wall distances.
The conceptual starting point was this: What would good speaker/room interaction look like? Arguably it would include a good first-arrival sound; then a time gap with relatively little reflected energy; then when the reflections do start to arrive they are spectrally correct, are neither too strong nor too weak, and decay neither too fast nor too slow.
Normally this sort of speaker/room interaction is implemented primarily by room design and/or extensive room treatment. I am attempting to arrive at approximately the same end result via loudspeaker design alone, without room treatments being required.
I can go into more detail if you'd like.
One thought, they paired with the tube amplifier. There are more than you who have thought of that.Darn the specs on that Heco, looks like I speaker I would really like, could be great with a tube amp with sensitivity at 98dB, but also capable of being driven with 350W RMS. Unfortunately according to their website they seem to have discontinued the entire Direkt series. Rats. Probably very, very rare used in the US.
Yes but the heco in the picture is a three way. This may not be a problem with wisely chosen driver sizes and xover points .Wavegudie, or horn itself is not a requirement. It may not be necessary if the baffle is wide enough. In addition, waveguide is a matter of exactly that, creating a guide of sound, a directivity. Then whether you like it or not is more a matter of taste.
However, to get a sensible crossover between an eight-inch bass element and a small soft dome tweeter in a good way. Well, let's say it's a challenge. There I agree with you.
By the way, what's wrong with a wide baffle? On the contrary, it's good. Facilitates that Duke is in on regardning problems / challenges with baffle step compensation. Here is an example of a speaker with a wide baffle. That model was, perhaps still is?, popular:
Heco Direkt Dreiklang:
View attachment 208124
Edit:
Sufficiently wide baffle in relation to crossoverpoint, how the sound radiates at different frequencies, then (PERHAPS?)no waveguide is needed. The only question is how wide / large baffle that is needed?Plus round (how big / round?) Baffle edges, so that sound does not bounce but "slips around". That's something that Duke most certainly can tell more about and is thinking about regarding speaker design.
In addition, you can choose the type of dispersion you want, see:
Select dispersion pattern
Which dispersion pattern had you chosen? If we play with the idea that you would use a waveguide. Choose vertical and horizontal dispersion and feel free to justify your choice. For inspiration here you can see different waveguides...audiosciencereview.com
It looks like you put everything back there, INCLUDING the kitchen sink, at least that's what it reminds me of. Fortunately, it's hidden in the back although there's a mini sink in front. Please take this in the spirit it's offered, tongue in cheek.Sorry I forgot to come back and do this!
Here are pictures of the front and back of one of my speakers:
View attachment 208020View attachment 208021
Level and "tilt" controls for the rear-firing horn are in the large rectangular cup in the upper-left quadrant of the rear of the cabinet.