Such a surprise.
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Audiogon thread critical of ASR
- Thread starter aslan7
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The inability of some posters there to accept evidence-based science is stunning. It is a similar logical construct as saying “I’m not going to treat my cancer because the treatments make me feel worse. Your fancy MRIs, blood analyzers, and pathology tests can’t measure my feelings.”
D
Deleted member 21219
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If they DID say that, then they would at least behave in a consistent manner. But they DON'T behave in a consistent manner.
Realistically speaking, they will use the science-based medical technology. Ergo, they trust it.
They will trust the science-based technology that goes into their cars, hybrid or otherwise.
They will trust science-based aerodynamic technology when they travel by airplane.
They will trust the science-based digital technology that enables their refrigerators and stoves to operate correctly.
They will trust the digital technology that allows their TV to entertain them.
They will trust the technology-based science that warns them of hurricanes, tornadoes and storms that are broadcast on said TV.
They trust the science-based digital technology that allows them to use their cell phones.
Most of them even trust the science-based use and control of nuclear power, so they can enjoy the benefits of electricity.
They just reject evidence-based science when it come to audio.
Selective little buggers, aren't they?
Jim
OP
aslan7
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Silver actually has some benefits in contacts experiencing regular high-current make/break action. But it mostly results in a longer service life.
In audio equipment it doesn't really do anything other than tarnish. You were definitely right in ignoring that bit of "advise"
Reading his posts reminded me that I just don't understand the point of science in the 21st century. We know that Ra the sun god's chariot is what causes noise and distortion in audio... not measurable physics. If you want better SINAD... step up the number of virgin sacrifices... and listen as the thunder quells.
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In one reply, Amir mentioned a common critique some make anent the often remarked wine-tasting analogy. That is, you can't definitively measure the quality and taste of a wine, and hence, a vinotic enjoyment factor can't be objectified. Instead, one has to use ones palate, subjectively.
I think his response was spot on. I.e., the music is like the wine, whereas the gear is like the wine glass. Testing tells you whether the glass is transparent, covered with a dirty residue, made from a compound that doesn't impart a bad taste to the wine, etc.
No one ever says, "The Richard Brendon tulip bowl imparts a 'nutty characteristic' to the flavor, while the Josephine No 3 highlights the yeast-like aromas." However you read that sort of thing all the time about hi-fi gear.
On the other hand, subjectively, while two glasses may be identical in shape and cleanliness, everyone knows that the Baccarat will increase enjoyment of your Cabernet, over the Walmart brand.
A final point. ASR is really an engineering oriented site, primarily. Some of the commenters at Audiogon say they are laughed at if they post subjective stuff here. And that that is unfair. I wonder..., after enrolling in the EE track at Harvey Mudd (could these people even get in?), on the first day of Introduction to Materials Engineering, would they ask whether the crystalline nanostructure of a particular metallic compound might assist in the pace and timing, and plankton of a propagated signal? Or would they intuitively know how ridiculous such a thing sounds, and simply shut up, paying closer attention to the instructor?
I think his response was spot on. I.e., the music is like the wine, whereas the gear is like the wine glass. Testing tells you whether the glass is transparent, covered with a dirty residue, made from a compound that doesn't impart a bad taste to the wine, etc.
No one ever says, "The Richard Brendon tulip bowl imparts a 'nutty characteristic' to the flavor, while the Josephine No 3 highlights the yeast-like aromas." However you read that sort of thing all the time about hi-fi gear.
On the other hand, subjectively, while two glasses may be identical in shape and cleanliness, everyone knows that the Baccarat will increase enjoyment of your Cabernet, over the Walmart brand.
A final point. ASR is really an engineering oriented site, primarily. Some of the commenters at Audiogon say they are laughed at if they post subjective stuff here. And that that is unfair. I wonder..., after enrolling in the EE track at Harvey Mudd (could these people even get in?), on the first day of Introduction to Materials Engineering, would they ask whether the crystalline nanostructure of a particular metallic compound might assist in the pace and timing, and plankton of a propagated signal? Or would they intuitively know how ridiculous such a thing sounds, and simply shut up, paying closer attention to the instructor?
Well yeah, sure, but science takes all that reading and comprehending and even math!!!!
Not arguing with you. The creation of Art that captures your imagination and emotions or a musical score that gives you chills and delight is also sometimes equally complex and difficult. To reach the pinnacle of either path requires great effort and study. One side of the physical world and the other side of the human mind/imagination. While each is the polar opposite of the other they are both incredibly similar and valuable to humanity. Great engineering achievements have come from the creative portion of the human mind. One based on Science and the other on psychology and philosophy. Can we not see the value in both? If you had two people, one whom could perform extremely complex mathematical calculations in their head in seconds while the other could create a musical score or play a violin like a master at 10 years old. Would you not agree that both are gifted and have incredible mental abilities. Placing value on one and not the other is wrong.
We are a Science based community. So science and engineering is the language we speak and know. Is this the right place for an Artist or Composer to share their passion and find like minded people to share their ideas and thoughts with? Not going to say no, but we are going to have a communication problem from the get go. We can immediately agree that we don’t understand each other and try to work our way to some compromise of understanding. I think in the end we have more in common than we think and without either group the world would be dysfunctional and lack beauty and inspiration. JMHO.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Alright, I think I saw this thread on ASR being mentioned in the one on Audiogon as an example of why ASR is a toxic pit full of snakes.
So, here's a little letter from me to anyone dropping by:
We do not hate you. We do not think we are better people than you in any way. We do not have a secret financial agenda. We do not follow the words of Amir as gospel.
We do not try to make one single opinion the only acceptable one, but we do acknowledge that opinions can be based on claims that are falsifiable and therefore has little to no value to others. Having a large amount of people who hold the same opinion does not substitute the need for evidence either.
You could ask yourself the famous question (this is not an invitation to a religious debate, just so you know): What would it take to change your mind?
If the answer is "Sound (no pun intended) logic and solid evidence" then you'll feel right at home at ASR.
If deep down the answer is "Nothing!" then you'll have a hard time on this forum. And if you take it personally, the ban hammer will most likely come down on you.
It's really nothing personal when that happens. Anybody who goes off the rails will get the same treatment. The "crusading" new members just fill more in the statistics. It has nothing to do with censorship or indoctrination. You are seriously all welcome as long as you stay civil and don't take the inevitable controversy as a personal insult.
Yes, the users here probably seem like a stubborn bunch of single-minded cynics who simply cling on to a different flavor of "Nothing!", but bring some irrefutable data to the table, and you'll see that wall crumble. If you don't, be prepared to face a lot of scepticism, maybe even some ridicule. Again, it's nothing personal.
We are all in some degree or another in this hobby because of the way it speaks to our emotions, and we all have a deep appreciation of music and the way it affects us.
Only difference being that the usual ASR clientele has reached a point, where they try their best to not let those emotions cloud their judgement. ASR is a safe haven for those who wish to get to the core of things. We do not in any way aim at ridding emotions from our (or your) lives, but there is a time and a place for them to take the stage. When trying to investigate the pure functionality of things, emotions doesn't exactly give a helping hand. Quite the contrary.
And no, ASR does not hold the key to any truths or absolutes, but it's not really needed. It's all about probability.
If all evidence points to the odds of your claim having any relevance as being equivalent of winning the lottery twenty times in a row, is it really necessary to keep postulating those claims on an internet forum? And are the ASR users really being intolerant if they seem to not give a s¤¤t about it?
If that makes sense to you, come join the fun!
IMO, 2 cent, etc. etc. Killingbeans.
/RANT
So, here's a little letter from me to anyone dropping by:
We do not hate you. We do not think we are better people than you in any way. We do not have a secret financial agenda. We do not follow the words of Amir as gospel.
We do not try to make one single opinion the only acceptable one, but we do acknowledge that opinions can be based on claims that are falsifiable and therefore has little to no value to others. Having a large amount of people who hold the same opinion does not substitute the need for evidence either.
You could ask yourself the famous question (this is not an invitation to a religious debate, just so you know): What would it take to change your mind?
If the answer is "Sound (no pun intended) logic and solid evidence" then you'll feel right at home at ASR.
If deep down the answer is "Nothing!" then you'll have a hard time on this forum. And if you take it personally, the ban hammer will most likely come down on you.
It's really nothing personal when that happens. Anybody who goes off the rails will get the same treatment. The "crusading" new members just fill more in the statistics. It has nothing to do with censorship or indoctrination. You are seriously all welcome as long as you stay civil and don't take the inevitable controversy as a personal insult.
Yes, the users here probably seem like a stubborn bunch of single-minded cynics who simply cling on to a different flavor of "Nothing!", but bring some irrefutable data to the table, and you'll see that wall crumble. If you don't, be prepared to face a lot of scepticism, maybe even some ridicule. Again, it's nothing personal.
We are all in some degree or another in this hobby because of the way it speaks to our emotions, and we all have a deep appreciation of music and the way it affects us.
Only difference being that the usual ASR clientele has reached a point, where they try their best to not let those emotions cloud their judgement. ASR is a safe haven for those who wish to get to the core of things. We do not in any way aim at ridding emotions from our (or your) lives, but there is a time and a place for them to take the stage. When trying to investigate the pure functionality of things, emotions doesn't exactly give a helping hand. Quite the contrary.
And no, ASR does not hold the key to any truths or absolutes, but it's not really needed. It's all about probability.
If all evidence points to the odds of your claim having any relevance as being equivalent of winning the lottery twenty times in a row, is it really necessary to keep postulating those claims on an internet forum? And are the ASR users really being intolerant if they seem to not give a s¤¤t about it?
If that makes sense to you, come join the fun!
IMO, 2 cent, etc. etc. Killingbeans.
/RANT
D
Deleted member 21219
Guest
Amen, brother! That's the heart of the matter, right there!
Jim
Obviously my sarcasm didn't come through. I agree completely.
mhardy6647
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Vacceo
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We Await Silent Trystero Empire!!!I knew there was a conspiracy! I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Tristero (Trystero) was (were?) involved.
It all starts to make sense now...
Robin L
Master Contributor
I'd look into that Nefastis machine business, also the history of Rocketdyne.I knew there was a conspiracy! I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Tristero (Trystero) was (were?) involved.
It all starts to make sense now...
Don't forget them Nazi drug dealers in Stanford.
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I would admire both. But that doesn't mean I'd want to listen to the math wunderkind play Mozart, or mean that I'd take the math SAT prep with a 10 year old violin player.
Besides, like that famous chewing gum showed us, it is possible to have two in one--it's not that uncommon. A guy like Les Paul comes to mind, who was at home playing on a stage, or making records, as he was fiddling with electronics.
As an aside, some years ago one of the magazines (it was either Stereophile or TAS) hired an orchestra musician to review gear, subjectively. He played the bassoon or something. The idea was that since he played professionally, he'd know what an orchestra recording was supposed to sound like.
But it was a non-sequitur. It didn't take long before readers pointed out that while he might perfectly understand and recognize what his bassoon was supposed to sound like, played in the second row, sitting behind the strings and next to the clarinets, what did that have to do with how the guy seated in mid-row Orchestra Premium heard the performance, much less what the overhead mikes picked up?
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
After reading @amirm on the Audiogon thread, I am more entice than ever to keep reading and participating in this forum.
His post are full of wisdom, explaining well what ASR stands for, what ASR can and cannot do.
I just wish that more members here, refrain from being as fanatic and zealots, as members are over there or most other "audiophile" forums.
I love the expression from Amir, when he states that here we have (are using) a compass. does not makes us infallible, does not makes us "right" (versus wrong), just more likely to find our way better than without a compass.
ASR and the members can offer a lot to this "audiophile" community, we can be the guiding light, we should embrace the responsibility, be humble, helpful and understand when all those people, who are kept in the dark, might be a bit frustrated and that at first the bright light my hurt theirs eyes.
His post are full of wisdom, explaining well what ASR stands for, what ASR can and cannot do.
I just wish that more members here, refrain from being as fanatic and zealots, as members are over there or most other "audiophile" forums.
I love the expression from Amir, when he states that here we have (are using) a compass. does not makes us infallible, does not makes us "right" (versus wrong), just more likely to find our way better than without a compass.
ASR and the members can offer a lot to this "audiophile" community, we can be the guiding light, we should embrace the responsibility, be humble, helpful and understand when all those people, who are kept in the dark, might be a bit frustrated and that at first the bright light my hurt theirs eyes.
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