No vinyl for you then?
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Audio Note speakers
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
- Start date
Only since 1975ish.
I have records I must admit I don’t play them very often and I wouldn’t use vinyl for any meaningful comparison.
Keith
I have records I must admit I don’t play them very often and I wouldn’t use vinyl for any meaningful comparison.
Keith
This is because the meaning of "objectivism" is always misunderstood.
Objectivists are not computers that "listen" to binary data and only read spinoramas. Objectivists as well as subjectivists love the charm of vintage equipment, may listen to tube amplifiers or love colorful speakers.
What objectivists do not do is believe that our ears can somehow discover something that measurements cannot identify. What they don't do is confuse personal taste with absolute quality, what they don't do is spend incredible amounts of money without evaluating the real contribution of a member to the music. What they don't do is blindly believe ridiculous, science-unsupported marketing claims about certain components.
This is objectivism, not hating turntables
DanielT
Major Contributor
Many here at ASR are middle-aged or older. Vinyl (and FM radio and crap cassette players) is what they, or we, used as youngsters. So there is a component of nostalgia to tinkering with turntables now. Another part is tinkering with something physical, the tactile sensation. There are probably more factors, perhaps taking more time and listening to whole records with a record player? You can of course also do that with streamed music, but maybe there is something about vinyl that invites you to it more, so to speak.
There are those who use modern cars on a daily basis but take out their vintage car (which objectively has worse performance) and drive it on weekends. Just to get the vintage car experience.
Maybe the same with streamed music vs vinyl?Sure! I’m solidly in that group and appreciate your point. But my turntable, despite the inherent flaws, can sound better to my ear than my streamer. Sometimes I like it better. I don’t think about how either measures.Many here at ASR are middle-aged or older. Vinyl (and FM radio and crap cassette players) is what they, or we, used as youngsters. So there is a component of nostalgia to tinkering with turntables now. Another part is tinkering with something physical, the tactile sensation. There are probably more factors, perhaps taking more time and listening to whole records with a record player? You can of course also do that with streamed music, but maybe there is something about vinyl that invites you to it more, so to speak.
There are those who use modern cars on a daily basis but take out their vintage car (which objectively has worse performance) and drive it on weekends. Just to get the vintage car experience.
Does gear X sound better to you (or you or you) than gear Y? Does it reveal more to you? Like any brand, some will prefer AN to others and some will hate it. Some will prefer Benchmark or whatever. Is it reasonable to read pages of measurements and buy based on data alone without listening?
It can sound good though, can’t it
DanielT
Major Contributor
I don’t think about how either measures.
Yes it is. Measurable differences, if they are large enough differences, indicate different audible sound quality. But okay then you can imagine that vinyl sounds better than high-quality streamed music, but that's another matter (if we assume equivalent quality of the music recordings when comparing).
I wouldn't care about sound quality which is reproduced via record players and vinyl. That as long as the solution doesn't pick up a hell of a lot of noise through the cables, has grounding problems that cause clearly audible annoying noise.That's where I probably differ somewhat from others here who play vinyl and actually want to be able to produce as good a sound as they can get out of their record players. I just think it's unnecessary to keep spending a lot of time and money on improving the quality of vinyl sound when nowadays there is high-quality (highest audio quality) streamed music available at a very low price.
Vinyl for the charm, the nostalgia, to tinker with a physical media.
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Vladimir Filevski
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Wrong! Simple logic: Even if one type of test was designed in the first place for something very specific, if it turns to be good and valid for audio (for example), it doesn’t make it invalid only because it was designed earlier for something else.
Wrong! Subjective response is a direct result of the physiological response in the brain (synapse firing, etc). Simply call it “DBT for subjective response”.
That is so wrong, I am speechless! Although English is not my native language, I do know some much more adequate English words to describe how stu… stunningly wrong is what you wrote. The problem is that I’ll be banned for good by moderators of this forum, if I wrote them.
You do need to read some introductory books for Statistics. Something for absolute beginners in Statistics, like books from series “For Dummies” (https://www.dummies.com/) or from “Idiot’s Guides Series” (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/IDU/idiots-guides/)
Oh really? Please give us evidence for that!
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They sound like vinyl, when CD came out I switched immediately, I don’t really see it as a competition, technically and in terms of sound quality and convenience digital is streets ahead but if you like vinyl and the associated kerfuffle…
Keith
Richard Austen
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They are primarily an amplifier manufacturer which can be seen in their Factory tour video -- then a CD player/Transport DAC maker - which are made in a second plant in Europe (Lithuania I think) - then the speakers and turntables are made at a very tiny operation in a Stream Powered Plant in Austria.
This short video shows the relatively tiny speaker operation compared to their amplifier plant - AN took over the old B&W speaker plant when AN expanded.
I can't speak to Quintard's recordings as I have not heard them - I have heard Steve Hoffman's recordings which have been excellent and well-reviewed and I have a recording from Gearbox Records which also sounds very good.
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Richard Austen
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You can look up Meyers. David G "Psychology" - and learn some introductory Psychology to understand what Validity and Reliability are. A physiological response is in medicine is either the Dru works or it does not work. Subject A - has Diabetes Type II - and has a Blood Glucose level of 12 (so does Subject B) - Subject A is given Metformin and other Diabetes medication - after a month they test - Subject A has a blood glucose level of 5.5 - subject B is still around 12.
The drug works - there is no "survey" and no "Q/A" involved. "Do you feel like the drug worked? Maybe Subject A says - nah feel the same - and Subject B says - "feel great Doc" - With Q/A - people can get it wrong.
The Audio DBT is massively different - you play a piece of music - you play it again - and you are trying to listen for some trait in the music that sounds different - perhaps you will focus on the cymbals given they are high frequency - maybe both players or amps sound the same 95% of the time. You are now trying to figure out what isolated piece of the music sounds different (arguably perhaps straining to find it). Maybe you hear it and maybe you don't but your brain does not get trapped into feedback loops - it has a defence mechanism to give it something satisfying so that it can move on. Ahh hell just say A. Next problem.
Validity is the aspect of the test that is about determining how whatever test you are doing mirrors the real-life experience, in this case of music listening. Audio DBTs are not perfectly mirroring the experience.
Psychologists and teachers know this. Look I get it - the current DBTs are "something" and you can argue it's better than doing sighted evaluations filled with all kinds of bias but the key importance is that a DBT can never prove that A=B - all they can do is say that the subject could not tell a difference between A and B better than chance in this particular test. So the fact that someone ran a test and no one could tell two amps apart does not then mean that no one can tell any two amps apart everywhere (ditto for cables/CD players/Streamers/tape decks etc)
On another forum there is someone who touts Benchmark because apparently, it's the best measuring amplifier in the history of the world - that very same guy would never be able to tell that amplifier apart from a $500 Rotel in a DBT because the distortion of the Rotel is so low already that no human could detect it from anything "lower" so why spend $3,000 on the Benchmark - all perfectly operating SS amps sound the same according to DBTs - indeed, one can buy a Rotel 1090 or that can output 1Kw at 1 ohm and run you $700 secondhand or any Bryston 3B which will hit higher watts than Benchmark and run you $500 and it may still have 10 years of warranty time on it - or buy a slew of class D amplifiers with big numbers and lower than the ear can detect distortion.
Anyway - the poster on the other board ended up buying a Sonic Frontiers tube preamp - another guy on another forum is "all about the measurements" and dumped his Benchmark for a Yamaha S2200 which he claims "sounds better" (warmer) These are ASR kind of people - the problem I have is that it's all about the measurements until they "like the sound of" something else better. Once you go down the "I like the sound of X better than Benchmark" you are saying that you are putting a "preference" for a lesser measuring amplifier over a better measuring amplifier and once you do that - then it's preference vs preference.
Richard Austen
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Is it good because it's expensive or good regardless of a hefty price tag?
Within HiFi, the correlation between price and performance seems to be absent. At least regarding DACs BUT we have also seen a lot of expensive amplifiers (tube of course) and speakers that Amir had on the test bench (or Klippel-rigged) that measure mediocre or even poorly.
(yes I know you Pearljam5000 already know this)
Then the question almost always arises, that is to say: Can hear something that can't be measured? I won't go into it because then it's mostly about subjectivity and psychology. Plus there are already threads about that topic on ASR. Since I mentioned DAC for example this 443 page long thread:
Price - performance correlation DACs:
I totally get why people would look at that video where he says "why would anyone pay $1600 for the PS Audio over the $80 Chinese DAC" - measurements are measurements. Look Audio Note uses the absolute best top-of-the-line Audio Precision that is available (the same one Amir is using) - PS Audio - look through their factory tours - they have all this measuring and test equipment too.
These are wealthy companies that hire degree-holding Engineers. who passed math and physics. The difference is that they listen and buy 30 DAC chips and say gee that's odd why does this older DAC chip sound so much better than this ESS Sabre DAC chip. Then they do some research and listen and adjust and listen and some of them will say - gee the distortion is a bit higher hear - but it brings 3 advantages over here. If we make the trade-off for better sound Stereophile and Amir are going to rip us - but it sounds better - oh damn but in order to do it we are going to need to use a transformer - oh shoot that is going to cost $180 for the part - so now we're going to be charging considerably more for a DAC that's going to measure worse - and we know that because we own the top of the line Audio Precision too!
The long-winded way to say - they KNOW how to make measurements darling - they can buy the $80 Chinese dac and reverse engineer it - Copy the Chinese for a change eh? They choose to make decisions based on music listening. They all know the textbook design and like their customers - they don't like the sound of the textbook design.
I make no value judgment - when I started in this hobby - all I cared about was measurements and buying what the recording studios used. And I think EVERYONE should hear them so they have a baseline for what is deemed to be the most accurate stuff - then have a listen to the long-lasting home audio brands SS and Tube and SET and then try to determine - okay what is that Tube preamp doing here - yes yes - less accurate but am I enjoying music better - can I listen to some of my lesser recordings now that I simply could not enjoy with my SS preamp? If yes - then you at least have a reason why someone else would want said tube preamp. You may not like what that tube preamp does to your best recordings, however. You may feel the tube makes your bad recordings more agreeable but it is marring your best recordings - well hold the phone - we do NOT live in a world where we have to make a choice - we can own BOTH. You say gee 50% of my music collection is ear-bleeding - but this tube set-up (preamp or integrated etc) makes them all enjoyable - but I like my SS or Class D system for the other 50% - so why not have your cake and eat it too?
Fortunately, it's really cheap to be able to buy the best-measuring stuff -buy Benchmark and Topping and Purifi - I guess I am all set - then I can go to ASR and ask this question:
Give me a list of the five best measuring loudspeakers for $2k, $3k, $4k etc. Whatever your price range is.
Then you build your excellent measurement system.
Then you can put together the goofball hocus pocus voodoo system for the touchy feelies. For this - you gotta just go listen and see if any of it lands.
Following a long tradition of subjectivists, You surely do Your best in trying to create a veil over the validity of DBT.
In the subjectivist vs. objectivist disagreement, the value of DBT is very simple and clear: The subjectivist camp claims over and over again having capability to detect sound quality related differences that the objectivist camp denies are detecteble by human ears / exist at all.
When a person claims that he can do something, the burden of proof lies on him. The subjectivists claiming such capability have failed to prove it in controlled conditions. The results are quite clear. DBTs have proven that the objecvtist camp has it right.
The argument about DBT not being a able to prove that nowhere in this universe exists a person who does not have the said capability is simply irrelevant. It is like saying that everyone should believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster, because it is impossible to prove that Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. The subjectivist camp finds this impossible to accept, because their point of view is based on belief in supernatural phenomenons.
Waxx
Major Contributor
AN is a cult, you can't discuss really with their following. But even in many subjectivist camps, they shake their head in disbelieve over AN and their claims and prices. But their cult followers keep pumping money in their productts....
Their stuff is not that special, not even on looks or design. It's old tech, not very well exeecuted nor build. You got other brands that also charge very high prices, but at least their devices look special, or are hand build and so are statement pieces with a high decorative value. AN is not that. They look very bland, and not that different from cheap aliexpress hifi devices in build quality and design. And they probally also don't measure better.
And that speaker is doing everything wrong in my book. The Snell E series were good speakers for their time, the AN-E not at all, it measures and souns terrible and is not that well build. Even Devore does that type of speaker better with their Orang Utang designs (and those are also crappy and overpriced). I heared both side by side next to an Dynaco A25XL (a 50 years old similar design speaker), and the Dynaco was way better subjectivly (and probally also objectivly, but i could not measure).
That Dynaco can be found for less than 1K in good shape, and a modern variation that is way better build can be build for 2K or so (even cheaper if the looks don't matter) as modern variations of the drivers are still made by Seas. The same for the Snell speakers. They used Vifa drivers (now sold under brand name of Scanspeak and Peerless, all three owned by Tymphany) that are still availeble in a modern form, and Snell E speaker can be build way better for far less (even commercially) than what AN charges for their bloated variation. And some do on diyaudio.com.
Their stuff is not that special, not even on looks or design. It's old tech, not very well exeecuted nor build. You got other brands that also charge very high prices, but at least their devices look special, or are hand build and so are statement pieces with a high decorative value. AN is not that. They look very bland, and not that different from cheap aliexpress hifi devices in build quality and design. And they probally also don't measure better.
And that speaker is doing everything wrong in my book. The Snell E series were good speakers for their time, the AN-E not at all, it measures and souns terrible and is not that well build. Even Devore does that type of speaker better with their Orang Utang designs (and those are also crappy and overpriced). I heared both side by side next to an Dynaco A25XL (a 50 years old similar design speaker), and the Dynaco was way better subjectivly (and probally also objectivly, but i could not measure).
That Dynaco can be found for less than 1K in good shape, and a modern variation that is way better build can be build for 2K or so (even cheaper if the looks don't matter) as modern variations of the drivers are still made by Seas. The same for the Snell speakers. They used Vifa drivers (now sold under brand name of Scanspeak and Peerless, all three owned by Tymphany) that are still availeble in a modern form, and Snell E speaker can be build way better for far less (even commercially) than what AN charges for their bloated variation. And some do on diyaudio.com.
DSJR
Major Contributor
As an aside sir, he may design nice valve amps, but he needs to site that Rega deck better and lord knows if in that picture, the speakers are decoupled from the unit its sitting on, feeding back lovely (not) bass vibrations into the turntable. yes I know it's probably a staged pic to show the amp off and give some vibe on its size, but ignorant audiop-hiles will think that's an acceptable way to site and display their sound rig and believe me, it's not!!!Speaking of tube amps because tube amp is part of the solution in that video. As I see it, tube amps have their place among DIY enthusiasts who have technical knowledge and find it fun and satisfying to tinker with tube amp building projects.
Here an example. Horias2000 got this tube amp together. Measures, compared to other tube amps, really well. A really nice build overall.
A lot of technical design discussions with SIY in that thread (SIY is undeniably knowledgeable regarding tube amps).
SIY with this sentence describes it well:
You're making me itch to get my next tube amp built.
Horias2000 DIY tube amp:
View attachment 365755
View attachment 365756View attachment 365757View attachment 365758
Building a valve amplifier
I managed to perform a quick measurement with the feedback closed. Below you can see the frequency response (log frequency scale). I'm also inserting the openloop response with log frequency scale, just for reference. And I'm attaching the square wave response for 1kHz, 500Hz and 100Hz...
Buying commercial tube amps, on the other hand, I am extremely doubtful about. Often very expensive and that combined with often rather lousy performance and low power is not a winning combination in my eyes.
The best specs in the bloody world can't make up for bad siting of equipment as well as room acoustics, especially the speakers, where they're placed and the room itself which so often ruins aspirational sound systems.
DSJR
Major Contributor
I think it's the psychology involved. I can enjoy a record playing session via a really decent player/pickup (haven't done so for a very long time though) where I and others accept the flaws, surface noise at times and so on, but you see, thirty five years back I tried hard to cobble vinyl players together than came as close as possible to the analogue master copies I had and obviously digital as in red-book CD, using a range of discs and pressings. The trouble for me has always been that as soon as I put on a CD, the turntable was turned off and forgotten for the rest of the session - and I had and used some bl;oody good vinyl sources too after leaving the LP12 behind! Way off topic again - sorry
DSJR
Major Contributor
So can a Hacker, B&O or Roberts vintage FM portable radio if heard at lowish volumes in isolation from a proper sound system with more extended response
“But my turntable, despite the inherent flaws, can sound better to my ear than my streamer. Sometimes I like it better.”
I didn’t make a blanket statement that vinyl sounds better than high-quality streamer music. I said it can to me sometimes. And I’m not imagining anything…I’m listening and enjoying the experience.
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If you like it you like it, that’s fair enough.
Keith
Keith
Okay, so speakers are a totally unrelated business!
My apologies, but your repeated and astonishingly lengthy assertions that Audio Note gear is technically excellent lend no credibility to your judgments regarding the quality of recordings.
Now we hear from you that Audio Note and similar companies have excellent engineers and expensive measurement equipment but choose to sell products that measure poorly because they "sound" better. The implication is that these companies perhaps have some trade-secreted knowledge of how measurements and sound quality correlate.
But this is nonsense. They don't have any secret knowledge, and Audio Note and PS Audio do not hire serious engineers. These are companies full of tinkerers and dilettantes.
And it's tinkerers and dilettantes who buy the narrative. It's why the people who buy this expensive stuff tend to be businesspeople, lawyers, social scientists, journalists, musicians, artists, etc. I've rarely met a real engineer or anyone with a background in the hard sciences who blew money on any of this crap.
I used to enjoy these narratives, too, but got educated several years ago.
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