As a guitar player, is audio interface your only option?

[Pancreas]

I suppose this depends on whether you're using your studio monitors for playing guitar or not. If you have a regular guitar amplifier or have a separate FRFR cabinet/powered cabinet, then it doesn't matter.

The future of electric guitar playing is modeling, where AI simulates/models the tones created by actual physical tube amplifiers. There are even DSP plugins that can do this, and although they don't sound as good as physical modelers, they're affordable and you only need your computer, audio interface and speakers.

Examples of physical modelers are the Axe FX 3, Quad Cortex, Helix, etc.

With a physical modeler, you can either use your studio monitors or a separate powered cabinet. With the plugins, you have no choice but to use your studio monitors.

This means you need an audio interface for pretty much your whole computer sound needs.

If you use an audio interface, you can't use anything else, as your powered studio monitors would be connected to it. Problem is many audio interfaces are lacking in the sound department. The one I have Motulite Ultralite MK5 is pretty decent but is nowhere near the level of audiophile DACs.

It's most affordable to use your studio monitors for guitar playing and everything else, rather than buying an actual powered FRFR cabinet for guitar playing only, even more affordable if you only use plugins, though the better tone, presets, and quality of actual physical modelers can't be denied.

Plugins cost $80-150 whereas physical modelers tend to cost more than $1500

Here is a video of all the tones/amp you can do with a physical modeler that costs $2300.

 

[Bamboszek]

Problem is many audio interfaces are lacking in the sound department. The one I have Motulite Ultralite MK5 is pretty decent but is nowhere near the level of audiophile DACs.

What is the issue with Motu sound quality? There is no way that you can distinguish between 110-115 dB SINAD of Motu vs ~120dB of state-of-art DACs.

With the plugins, you have no choice but to use your studio monitors.

That's not true either. Have you heard of reamping?

though the better tone, presets, and quality of actual physical modelers can't be denied.

While standalone modeling amps are easier to use, more convenient at live performances and etc. sound quality are on par or even better at VST plugins.
Amplitube 5 is really solid. Line 6 Helix uses exactly same algorithms in standalone HW and in plugin.

 

[Cbdb2]

There are good modelers for a fraction of that cost.

Zoom - G3n Multi-Effects Pedal

Zoom - G3n Multi-Effects Pedal

www.long-mcquade.com

I never liked these units (could always tell it was a modeler) till recently. I have this pedal type for bass guitar and love it. Includes a drum machine and a looper and has stereo out. You can also download 3rd party patches.
For $200US you don't need to buy an instrument ADC, computer(except to run the editor software), or plug ins. And it never crashes

 

[DVDdoug]

...Is an audio interface your only option?

You need an interface or ADC for almost ANY (digital) recording).

There are also some decent studio-style USB "podcast mics", which essentially have an interface/soundcard built-in, or at-least the recording-half of a soundcard.

Or there are stand-alone solid state recorders. If you are doing something like digitizing vinyl or cassettes, sometimes the input on a regular soundcard in a desktop/tower computer is OK. Most laptops don't have line inputs.

The mic input on a regular soundcard or laptop is usually low quality, and in any case they are not compatible with "pro" stage/studio mics. It's also not compatible with a guitar pickup.

Pro studios sometimes record (electric) guitar directly, sometimes they put a microphone in front of the cabinet, and sometimes they record both in parallel. Of course, the "direct" connection can come out of an effects pedal.

...I read a story about some famous band (I don't remember who) where the guitar player insisted on recording from his amp with a mic. Somehow the recording engineer convinced him to allow recording direct also. The engineer ended-up using the direct track with a sim in the final mix and the guitar player never knew. A lot of "things" go-into a mix and he's hearing it on monitors so it's going to sound "different" and it's not surprising that he couldn't tell.

Plugins cost $80-150 whereas physical modelers tend to cost more than $1500

Right. You may not be able to afford the amp of your dreams but you can probably afford a plug-in simulation, or several different sims for lots of variety. And assume you are recording at home, a lot of the highly-desired and highly-preferred amps sound best when overdriven and LOUD. You can use a sim without bothering everybody in your neighborhood and everybody in your house/apartment!

The future of electric guitar playing is modeling, where AI simulates/models the tones created by actual physical tube amplifiers.

Yes. Sadly, guitar players will no longer be needed...

P.S.
There's a lot of "mythology" among musicians... It's almost as bad as the audiophile community... Jim Lill has a YouTube channel where he does lots of interesting & practical "scientific" experiments with guitars, amps, and microphones, etc. I'm not sure if it will answer your questions but I find it interesting and I'm not a guitar player!

 

[Pancreas]

What is the issue with Motu sound quality? There is no way that you can distinguish between 110-115 dB SINAD of Motu vs ~120dB of state-of-art DACs.

That's not true either. Have you heard of reamping?

While standalone modeling amps are easier to use, more convenient at live performances and etc. sound quality are on par or even better at VST plugins.
Amplitube 5 is really solid. Line 6 Helix uses exactly same algorithms in standalone HW and in plugin.

One big downside of the plugins is that the computer needs to be on to use them. It's hard to justify $1500+ when the plugins can do the same

The plugins ain't that cheap though.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Problem is many audio interfaces are lacking in the sound department. The one I have Motulite Ultralite MK5 is pretty decent but is nowhere near the level of audiophile DACs.

That's a bit like complaining about the family station wagon not having hypercar acceleration times. Audio interfaces proverbially speaking have many more mouths to feed and as such can't go overboard in the performance department quite as much. They're still likely to outperform whatever is in your monitors. There's a bunch of upper-midrange interfaces nowadays that basically are as good as almost anything you could buy 20 years ago. It's not like our needs have changed since then. >110 dB(A) worth of dynamic range with levels dialed in and <-90 dB worth of distortion, and Bob's your uncle.

As an aside, if you are working "in the box", the interesting part in terms of the end product is the input / preamp / ADC anyway. Strictly speaking, the monitor output only needs to be good enough for the one recording to be able to do their job. Some entry-level jobs only just about get to that point, though average performance has been improving for years now (5 years ago when the Scarlett gen2 was ruling the low midrange, I would have agreed that performance of this segment was a bit meh, not so much nowadays). An Ultralite Mk5 should be a fair bit beyond it already.

 

[Timcognito]

That's a bit like complaining about the family station wagon not having hypercar acceleration times

Mine does.

Well not like a Lamborghini, but 0-60 4.3 sec.

 

[Pancreas]

That's a bit like complaining about the family station wagon not having hypercar acceleration times. Audio interfaces proverbially speaking have many more mouths to feed and as such can't go overboard in the performance department quite as much. They're still likely to outperform whatever is in your monitors. There's a bunch of upper-midrange interfaces nowadays that basically are as good as almost anything you could buy 20 years ago. It's not like our needs have changed since then. >110 dB(A) worth of dynamic range with levels dialed in and <-90 dB worth of distortion, and Bob's your uncle.

As an aside, if you are working "in the box", the interesting part in terms of the end product is the input / preamp / ADC anyway. Strictly speaking, the monitor output only needs to be good enough for the one recording to be able to do their job. Some entry-level jobs only just about get to that point, though average performance has been improving for years now (5 years ago when the Scarlett gen2 was ruling the low midrange, I would have agreed that performance of this segment was a bit meh, not so much nowadays). An Ultralite Mk5 should be a fair bit beyond it already.

so the mk5 outperforms the genelec 8030c?

 

[Cbdb2]

There's almost always enough noise and distortion from the guitar to cover any defects from the following electronics.

 

[Cbdb2]

Pro studios sometimes record (electric) guitar directly, sometimes they put a microphone in front of the cabinet, and sometimes they record both in parallel. Of course, the "direct" connection can come out of an effects pedal.

To record guitar (unless its active) directly into a mixer you need an instrument DI box to match impedances.

 

[Ricardus]

To record guitar (unless its active) directly into a mixer you need an instrument DI box to match impedances.

Which any decent studio has a half a dozen or so lying around.

 

[AnalogSteph]

so the mk5 outperforms the genelec 8030c?

Very likely so, yeah. According to specs, output noise level should be at -104 dBu(A), so with the Genelecs set to minimum sensitivity (+6 dB, giving 94 dB SPL @ 1 m for 0 dBu in) that would be at -10 dB SPL(A) @ 1 m, or about 15 dB below the Genelecs' specified noise floor. (According to Amir, measured dynamic range might fall 2-3 dB short of spec at 121 dB AES17, but so what if noise is only 12 dB lower, it's still irrelevant.)
At the same time, max +21 dBu out would equate to 115 dB SPL peak, which the speakers aren't even close to achieving. So you would have a good amount of dynamic range to spare on both ends, with a fair bit of wiggle room for setting input sensitivity (anywhere from +6 to 0 dB would be perfectly fine). The Genelecs realistically give you barely over 100 dB total.

There is a modest amount of "ESS hump" in the output but it's all going on below -80 dB in terms of SMPTE IMD, I doubt you can hear any of that. At other levels, I doubt the Genelec's electronics can hit more than the 90s in terms of SINAD (and neither do they need to). And let's not even get started in terms of acoustic driver distortion.

 

[Waxx]

What is mostly done with those modellers in studio's is recording the guitar dry trough a DI to the interface (never direct), and model internally or use a reamp to feed a real amp, set in perfect conditions, to get the right sound (recorded with microphones).

But for live performances, most guitar players (if not all) that i know still prefer a real amp, and in most cases a tube amp (at least the preamp with tubes) for the distortion characteristics. A modeller does not do the job live for them. It does not have to be a wall like in the past, even a small one can do it. Amp modelling is more something for in the studio, when the right real amp is not availeble or there is no space/infrastructure to work with real amps. But what method is used also depends a lot on the style of music and the role of the guitar in it. There is not one way, there are many and modelling is one of them.

 

[Jaxjax]

The future of electric guitar playing is modeling, where AI simulates/models the tones created by actual physical tube amplifiers. There are even DSP plugins that can do this, and although they don't sound as good as physical modelers, they're affordable and you only need your computer, audio interface and speakers.

I would chew my leg off before I did any of that...Maybe the future for some but not any guitar player I know...I will have a few tubes & my #1 gibson thrown in my casket. I do get the appeal of modeling though.. If I don't see a mic in front of a cab...I'm out.

 

[Cbdb2]

I would chew my leg off before I did any of that...Maybe the future for some but not any guitar player I know...I will have a few tubes & my #1 gibson thrown in my casket. I do get the appeal of modeling though.. If I don't see a mic in front of a cab...I'm out.

Even if you couldn't hear the difference? They do give you a large amount of tones with instant recall.

 

[DWPress]

I've had a Roland Micro Cube for at least 15 years I think which has several modeling settings. Fun toy and I suppose I'd get used to the crap interface if I had to use it live but miss the days when there was an array of foot pedals in front of me in constant need of 9V batteries.

Regarding the Motu - it is more than adequate for your needs, I considered one before the Okto DACs became available again but then the Motu was also sold out (Covid problems)

 

[GM3]

But for live performances, most guitar players (if not all) that i know still prefer a real amp, and in most cases a tube amp (at least the preamp with tubes) for the distortion characteristics. A modeller does not do the job live for them.

For the same reason as CDs or lossless digital formats does not do the job and most audiophiles prefer vinyl?

Emulation has gone a long way since the old days. When Line6 for instance models an amp, it does so by opening up the amp and measuring every electronic component of the amp, and the result is that the amp model is nearly indistinguishable from the real amp. That's when players start to talk about 'feel' or other sort of subjective nonsense... Many who have tried have fail blind tests when it's time to distinguish modelers vs real amps.

Sadly, a large portion of musicians aren't any better than audiofools in terms of snake oil and technical literacy... How many would pass a BT for real amp vs emulated?
Extremely low % IMHO... Most people are just oblivious and fall prey to bias and placebo.

Hell, just think about how so many guitarists rave about tone woods, vintage guitars, etc., people are just people. And worse, I think that most guitarists fit into the Artsy Fartsy category rather than technically literate engineer type, so they're easy prey for 'snake-oil'-like beliefs. (ex; better amps sound/feel better..)

 

[Waxx]

For the same reason as CDs or lossless digital formats does not do the job and most audiophiles prefer vinyl?

Emulation has gone a long way since the old days. When Line6 for instance models an amp, it does so by opening up the amp and measuring every electronic component of the amp, and the result is that the amp model is nearly indistinguishable from the real amp. That's when players start to talk about 'feel' or other sort of subjective nonsense... Many who have tried have fail blind tests when it's time to distinguish modelers vs real amps.

Sadly, a large portion of musicians aren't any better than audiofools in terms of snake oil and technical literacy... How many would pass a BT for real amp vs emulated?
Extremely low % IMHO... Most people are just oblivious and fall prey to bias and placebo.

Hell, just think about how so many guitarists rave about tone woods, vintage guitars, etc., people are just people. And worse, I think that most guitarists fit into the Artsy Fartsy category rather than technically literate engineer type, so they're easy prey for 'snake-oil'-like beliefs. (ex; better amps sound/feel better..)

I think that is very narrow minded. It does nog matter how good a modeller is, playing with a real amp is an experience no modeller can emulate. It's not about the sound, it's about the way they play, and the amp is an essential part of it. I used to play guitar and bass before, and i also agree with that. Second, a lot of harder rock or metal guitarists use the amp to generate feedback trough their pickups on the guitar as part of their sound. You can't do that with a modeller, certainly not on the fly.

Amp modellers are not the solution to everything, it's a way, and today the result can be very good. But it's not fit for everyone or every situation.

 

[GM3]

It's not about the sound, it's about the way they play, and the amp is an essential part of it.

What does that mean, in plain English? What's the difference? How does a DSP 'play' and how does a real amp 'play'? What does an amp do exactly besides generate 'sound'? (more accurately signal, since the speaker cab generates sound..)

Second, a lot of harder rock or metal guitarists use the amp to generate feedback trough their pickups on the guitar as part of their sound

Ok I'll admit that would be what I'd consider a special case. Certainly, you can generate feedback through normal speakers and DSP, but guitar cabs have different design goals vs regular speakers, so playing through a 4x12 cab isn't exactly the same as through $200 studio monitors for sure.

But, that's not an issue about DSP being inferior to a real amp, it's more about the speakers you're using. If you're going to to compare something to a 'proper' guitar cab, be it FRFR, studio monitors, hifi speakers or whatnot, it has to be similar... If you're say using DSP to emulate a cab and using FRFR speakers or whatnot, I'm guessing that you should be able to generate (extremely similar) feedback. Or, if you really wanted, nothing would be stopping anyone from using a real guitar cab with DSP for amp & effects.

I'm not sure though what % of guitarists would be limited just because of feedback though. If you're David Gilmour, and you have a crew to lug your rig around, and a tech to maintain the whole shabang, I guess go for it. Otherwise, say you have $3000, if you're going to compare DSP vs real cab + amp, if you choose the real cab + amp, you're losing on about 100+ amps, 100+ cabs, 100+ effects (reverbs, delays, chorus, etc.), the ability to do dual rigs; use 2 signal paths and 2 amps and 2 different cabs at once, the ability to do stereo, the ability to have dozens and dozens of highly customized sounds at the touch of a button, etc.. Is that worth more or less than feedback, which you likely can also do via cab/FRFR/etc.?

IMHO, for most folk, huge mistake not to go digital in 2024. Real gear should really be niche at this point.

Spoiler: My beef with emulators

My main complaint with emulators is that most seem to emulate recorded sound rather than in-room sound. Well Line6 products at least... What you're getting is not emulation of the sound of a guitar+amp+cab, you're getting the sound of guitar+amp+cab recorded via a microphone. In other words, you're not emulating what a real amp & cab in a room would sound like, you're instead emulating what you'd hear on a recording.

Anyway, maybe other brands support in room sound, or has a different philosophy, or using different IRs somewhat can alleviate this issue. But I think that may be the biggest issue. For live sound, unless it's a small venue, you're likely mic'd or plugging into the house PA system and all, so you're not 'really' getting the same 'live' sound as a pure cab + amp setup...

 

[Jaxjax]

For the same reason as CDs or lossless digital formats does not do the job and most audiophiles prefer vinyl?

Emulation has gone a long way since the old days. When Line6 for instance models an amp, it does so by opening up the amp and measuring every electronic component of the amp, and the result is that the amp model is nearly indistinguishable from the real amp. That's when players start to talk about 'feel' or other sort of subjective nonsense... Many who have tried have fail blind tests when it's time to distinguish modelers vs real amps.

Sadly, a large portion of musicians aren't any better than audiofools in terms of snake oil and technical literacy... How many would pass a BT for real amp vs emulated?
Extremely low % IMHO... Most people are just oblivious and fall prey to bias and placebo.

Hell, just think about how so many guitarists rave about tone woods, vintage guitars, etc., people are just people. And worse, I think that most guitarists fit into the Artsy Fartsy category rather than technically literate engineer type, so they're easy prey for 'snake-oil'-like beliefs. (ex; better amps sound/feel better..)

Nope....
Your telling me you have the control from your guitar you can get with tubes with anything Line 6 .? Line 6 doesn't have my amp as they are made for me & my playing style... so now what...send it to line 6 ? Kemper ? It's not like some of us haven't tried to get along with modelers/emulation..
My vintage guitars trump my new sh.. custom built or not. Everything has to have your feel when playing or else it's just a garbage run...
Audiophile BS & musicians are 2 different animals that should not be related. My amp builder always bias output's by ear then measures...exactly how I do it too. I run all external bias adjustments w/ externa;l measurement ports for quick & dirty meltdown tone in KT66 land.