ATC speakers / Monitors

[Chrise36]

OK here's a question :
What are ATC drivers made from?
Never seen anything mentioned about the materials

Paper and fabric as above some drivers maybe carbon reinforced paper not sure

 

[Pearljam5000]

Doped fabric (tweeter, midrange )and paper composite (woofers). Their reasoning is that their internal damping is high.

Psychologically I can't be relaxed knowing a driver is made from one of the most fragile materials on the planet

 

[thewas]

Psychologically I can't be relaxed knowing a driver is made from one of the most fragile materials on the planet

You should get some older B&W 800 models then, I can only say Kevlar and diamond, especially the yellow Kevlar mid driver might even save you at some gun shooting!

 

[dfuller]

Psychologically I can't be relaxed knowing a driver is made from one of the most fragile materials on the planet

Paper is actually really quite strong.

Paper and fabric as above some drivers maybe carbon reinforced paper not sure

Yep carbon reinforced paper usually. Their "secret sauce" for their drivers is the motor, they've got some material that is way lower distortion than normal ferrite, and no, it's not just a shorting ring, though it seems to work similarly to a shorting ring in that it makes the force more linear across the travel of the driver.

 

[YSC]

Here you can see without hpf on ATC110 (orange), which I actually ended up with, but turning down the F18's a few db, since it felt more punchy and integrated better with just the natural rolloff of the 110's, but as can be seen sub frequencies where a little too hot.

View attachment 225008

Actually this looked really good, reflections or room modes being minimal, and the rolled off treble above 10ths probably really make things sounded smooth and not fatigue inducing especially in long term high SPL.

Really I would say it is indeed a confirmation of it sounded better than any freestanding solution in a normal room ( and it should given the tailor made room), but just for the sake of digging into the contributing factors I believe that the ATC is a good enough speaker anechoic ally, which the room creator knows well as a basis to tune the whole room and setup.

If you look at the curve at normal 20-20hz scale you would see the trend fits really well with Harman in room target removing the rolled off highs (possibly off axis of tweeter ?), if the final room/speaker tuning fix that I totally agree it is an ideal in room setup. But beware it just showed how good the room designer is at tuning the final outcome but not how good ATC alone is, it’s contributed by the engineer tuning (eq?) the good enough speaker with clean high SPL and the treatment makes the wonder.

And it kind of confirmed both side of opinion regarding your room/setup IMO. The end product is really good, better than any standalone in reflective living rooms, and that

(the roll off with a big question mark does that carry through the final setup) other solutions like PMC or genelec or Neumann, Adam etc. being a good enough starting point and better directivity, when tuned with the same target in room to the degree your contractor did, it possibly sounded very similar or even better. I would be perfectly understanding why he swear by ATC, it could well be it’s the best known/understood speaker by him, so when the whole package is a lumpsum contract, it could cost him minimal trial and error and time. Which equates to profit.

 

[dfuller]

I believe that the ATC is a good enough speaker anechoic ally

Yep. They're not ruler flat, but generally they're well behaved enough off-axis and good enough on-axis that they aren't really going to be the weak link, assuming the room is reasonably well-treated.

Yeah, new designs in the last few years are better in some ways, but considering that ATCs are ~25 year old tech for the most part, they are damned good. Was anybody other than like, Genelec bothering with dispersion matching in the late 90s? I can't think of anybody. K&H wasn't, in fact their contemporary designs are conspicuously waveguide-less.

ATC is conservative and slow to change, but now with Billy gone (RIP) things may change for the better - Ben Lilly isn't a particularly conservative guy.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Why are the drivers sitting in the black plate(not sure if it has a specific name) and not inside the cabinet itself? And doesn't the plate itself cause diffraction?

 

[YSC]

Here you can see without hpf on ATC110 (orange), which I actually ended up with, but turning down the F18's a few db, since it felt more punchy and integrated better with just the natural rolloff of the 110's, but as can be seen sub frequencies where a little too hot.

Just a quick exercise to match scales to my L channel, single point measurement with the Genelec 2.1 setup in my gaming desk, untreated with lots of reflection surface and stuffs littered around. only EQ below 400hz to deal with peaks and some boost at 47hz to fill in the null with acceptable distortion, 1/48th smoothing (as opposed to the seemingly 1/6 used in your graph). it's really apparent they are shooting for the same target and for sure, my cheapo (~1500USD) setup won't remotely sound as good as in a treated room with all reflections and the wiggles due to comb filtering, but in this case I do think anechoically as flat as possible is the way to go in all usecase, then everything shall be done to minimize reflection defects above Schroder frequency and below EQ and absorb to try achieve the same/similar tonal balance.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Actually this looked really good, reflections or room modes being minimal, and the rolled off treble above 10ths probably really make things sounded smooth and not fatigue inducing especially in long term high SPL.

Really I would say it is indeed a confirmation of it sounded better than any freestanding solution in a normal room ( and it should given the tailor made room), but just for the sake of digging into the contributing factors I believe that the ATC is a good enough speaker anechoic ally, which the room creator knows well as a basis to tune the whole room and setup.

If you look at the curve at normal 20-20hz scale you would see the trend fits really well with Harman in room target removing the rolled off highs (possibly off axis of tweeter ?), if the final room/speaker tuning fix that I totally agree it is an ideal in room setup. But beware it just showed how good the room designer is at tuning the final outcome but not how good ATC alone is, it’s contributed by the engineer tuning (eq?) the good enough speaker with clean high SPL and the treatment makes the wonder.

And it kind of confirmed both side of opinion regarding your room/setup IMO. The end product is really good, better than any standalone in reflective living rooms, and that

(the roll off with a big question mark does that carry through the final setup) other solutions like PMC or genelec or Neumann, Adam etc. being a good enough starting point and better directivity, when tuned with the same target in room to the degree your contractor did, it possibly sounded very similar or even better. I would be perfectly understanding why he swear by ATC, it could well be it’s the best known/understood speaker by him, so when the whole package is a lumpsum contract, it could cost him minimal trial and error and time. Which equates to profit.

The rolled off 10K is not desireable, but as stated, it was due to over dampening at the time of measurement. Has been adjusted with diffusors since then.

FYI there is NO EQ tuning on these measurements. This is all acoustic design implementation, no DSP is introduced at this stage on the ATC, only the sub crossover.

 

[YSC]

The rolled off 10K is not desireable, but as stated, it was due to over dampening at the time of measurement. Has been adjusted with diffusors since then.

FYI there is NO EQ tuning on these measurements. This is all acoustic design implementation, no DSP is introduced at this stage on the ATC, only the sub crossover.

If achievable by no eq it will be better but then again the damping etc.is just hardware/ analogue style eq in my book for most part, as normally EQ is only used to tame reflection induced peaks which is same goal as using absorption in effect. Point is it basically proves your atc is anechoically flat and then subsequently the treatment takes the undesired reflections away to make it free from the peaks and nulls. My point is when the speaker is designed well with all modern optimisations a untreated room can make it really close to the target

 

[Torbachkristensen]

If achievable by no eq it will be better but then again the damping etc.is just hardware/ analogue style eq in my book for most part, as normally EQ is only used to tame reflection induced peaks which is same goal as using absorption in effect. Point is it basically proves your atc is anechoically flat and then subsequently the treatment takes the undesired reflections away to make it free from the peaks and nulls. My point is when the speaker is designed well with all modern optimisations a untreated room can make it really close to the target

No certainly not better adjusting with EQ, listening in an overly dampened environment is not pleasant, the decay time is too short, And we have a tendency to play overly loud and get fatigued. Diffusion is most definitely the right solution in this case - frequency balance is only part of the equation, we also need a fairly balanced/close to target decay time. Looking at room treatment as EQ is a definite misconception, if you ask me.

 

[YSC]

No certainly not better adjusting with EQ, listening in an overly dampened environment is not pleasant, the decay time is too short, And we have a tendency to play overly loud and get fatigued. Diffusion is most definitely the right solution in this case - frequency balance is only part of the equation, we also need a fairly balanced/close to target decay time. Looking at room treatment as EQ is a definite misconception, if you ask me.

I would personally say it’s a kind of in room EQ, just not by dsp, kind of like you change the emitting less sound at given frequency or reduce the reflection for the same FR output. Yea of course the best should be done both ways, you don’t want reflection-less or hell lot of it.

But truth to be told after seeing all these, I am more leaned towards overall approach wise you get the right speaker with acceptable on axis neutrality, get the SPL with desired distortion and the do bothe EQ or damping as needed. IRL when it’s used for mixing/entertainment the limitations are different so it’s important to choose your compromises.

And back to topic of ATC. Still seems like they are good but not really top notch or SOTA in todays standard, at the top end it can still be done right with a room designed around it, but for a layman to implement into his home there’s possibly more sensible or better choice

 

[Torbachkristensen]

I would personally say it’s a kind of in room EQ, just not by dsp, kind of like you change the emitting less sound at given frequency or reduce the reflection for the same FR output. Yea of course the best should be done both ways, you don’t want reflection-less or hell lot of it.

But truth to be told after seeing all these, I am more leaned towards overall approach wise you get the right speaker with acceptable on axis neutrality, get the SPL with desired distortion and the do bothe EQ or damping as needed. IRL when it’s used for mixing/entertainment the limitations are different so it’s important to choose your compromises.

And back to topic of ATC. Still seems like they are good but not really top notch or SOTA in todays standard, at the top end it can still be done right with a room designed around it, but for a layman to implement into his home there’s possibly more sensible or better choice

Pretty subjective conclusions, certainly not backed by these measurements or acoustic research/design principles. But then, everyone can form their own opinion, and what you read into these measurements is up to you. This is why blind measurement gospel is kind if wrong IMO. Anyone could take these and say, look ATC’s are totally veiled and dull beyond 10khz, when in fact it is the room not properly integrated with the speakers so the short HF decay time affects the FR (at this point).

My whole point in this thread has been that nothing is inherently wrong with ATC, in fact they beat most other manufacturers on multiple parameters, but to harness their ability demands close attention to integration as a system. And that is why cardioid and DSP designs certainly have their merits as a better/easier/cheaper solution in a lot of rooms - but they are not inherently better, and they will never be able to do what a big soffit mounted box can do, because that is just not acoustically possible.

 

[Frgirard]

Pretty subjective conclusions, certainly not backed by these measurements or acoustic research/design principles. But then, everyone can form their own opinion, and what you read into these measurements is up to you. This is why blind measurement gospel is kind if wrong IMO. Anyone could take these and say, look ATC’s are totally veiled and dull beyond 10khz, when in fact it is the room not properly integrated with the speakers (at this point). My whole point in this thread has been that nothing is inherently wrong with ATC, in fact they beat most other manufacturers on multiple parameters, but to harness their ability demands close attention to integration as a system. And that is why cardioid and DSP designs certainly have their merits in a lot of rooms - but they are not inherently better.

You will not change! Speakers measurements is masterised by the serious brands.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

You will not change! Speakers measurements is masterised by the serious brands.

To think ATC designs are made without extensive measurement is completely absurd and childish. You will never understand that design principles has to be adapted to the use case. These measurements speak for themselves.

 

[Frgirard]

To think ATC designs are made without extensive measurement is completely absurd and childish. You will never understand that design principles has to be adapted to the use case. These measurements speak for themselves.

In the link below, you have a measure made by atc.
This speaker is not flat on axis. This speaker do not respect the minimal requirements.
With a big deep between 1k and 5k where the ears is sensible.

Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Home Studio Build: Sharing my step by step build done by Professional Acoustic Engineers

Post 15559927 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.

gearspace.com

 

[goat76]

This video of a factory tour at ATC is an interesting watch. I'm sure making all their drivers in-house has its benefits.

 

[YSC]

In the link below, you have a measure made by atc.
This speaker is not flat on axis. This speaker do not respect the minimal requirements.
With a big deep between 1k and 5k where the ears is sensible.

Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Home Studio Build: Sharing my step by step build done by Professional Acoustic Engineers

Post 15559927 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.

gearspace.com

to be fair though these are another speaker from ATC, just saying if getting the benefit to the suspected, I would say even if the soffit mounted ATC is great, perfect or whatever.. their domestic standalone one is sub par.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

In the link below, you have a measure made by atc.
This speaker is not flat on axis. This speaker do not respect the minimal requirements.
With a big deep between 1k and 5k where the ears is sensible.

Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Home Studio Build: Sharing my step by step build done by Professional Acoustic Engineers

Post 15559927 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.

gearspace.com

For a QC measurement there is nothing to complain about here, you can see it at the end of Goat76 posted video it is just a sweep in their production room, pretty easibly susceptible to placement differences and room anomalies. They are surely not measured for absolute linearity in the QC process (no manufacturer would have time for that) but to check for any build or assembly problems - scientific measurements will be done at the R&D stage. This is obvious from your link where the OP's own measurements of the same speaker is essentially perfect to the target curve, except for some kind of anomally in his setup at 200hz. And as can be seen on my own measurements.

 

[thewas]

Yeah, new designs in the last few years are better in some ways, but considering that ATCs are ~25 year old tech for the most part, they are damned good. Was anybody other than like, Genelec bothering with dispersion matching in the late 90s? I can't think of anybody. K&H wasn't, in fact their contemporary designs are conspicuously waveguide-less.

K&H as well as Harman and not few other loudspeaker companies also seriously considered and optimised directivity in the 90s, more than ATC. Heck, few good and big loudspeaker companies did that even from the 1950s!, for example Grundig not only measured their loudspeakers in an anechoic room but also in the reverberant to optimise the sound power. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...are-coaxials-so-rare.26915/page-7#post-951473