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Why are coaxials so rare?

richard12511

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IMO, the biggest disadvantage of coaxials, and why they aren't more common, is because they are really hard to do well. I truly think doing them well takes R&D and technical knowledge that the vast majority of "small shop" manufacturers simply don't have. It takes R&D budgets of companies like Genelec and KEF to make coaxials that exceed non-coaxials in every way with almost no downsides. For most manufacturers, I think the cons will outweigh the pros.

A great coaxial is without a doubt better than a great non-coaxial, but a good coaxial is worse than a great non-coaxial :).

That's the biggest reason, but there are legitimate other weaknesses that might apply in some situations:

1. Inability to have different dispersion patterns horizontally and vertically. Most of the time, this isn't an issue, but there are certain situations where it might be useful to have narrow vertical dispersion. One example I can think of is a HT with multiple rows at different heights and low ceilings. Something like the Genelec 8361A may throw too many ceiling and floor reflections for folks in the back row. For a situation like that, a speaker like the Perlisten S7T might be a better solution, and its dispersion pattern can't really be achieved with a coaxial design.

2. SPL limitations. This is only really an issue for 2 way coaxials. Someone mentioned the Genelec Ones being output limited, but that has nothing to do with their coaxial design. The Ones are output limited by their small racetrack woofers and small enclosure. With subs, my 8351Bs can do 115dB+ at 3.5m(8361 probably 120dB+). How much more output do you really need?

2 way coaxials are indeed somewhat limited relative to non-coaxials(due to the waveguide movement). That's a legitimate weakness, but it's one who's importance depends heavily on the use case. If you're someone who uses external subwoofers and listens at moderate volume, it's probably not a big deal, and the pros of the coax design will outweigh the cons.

I do prefer coaxials overall, but it's not a huge advantage to my ears. Biggest advantages I hear are:

1. Imaging. I've got a few traditional designs(Revel M106, JBL 708p, Genelec 8030c) that do image well, but it's not as good as the coaxials I have. It should be mentioned that some folks seem to actually prefer an image that's more diffuse; for those folks, coax imaging wouldn't be an advantage.

2. Better floor bounce. I tried an experiment awhile back that makes me think we may somewhat underestimate the importance of good floor bounce. In trying to find and eliminate all of the nulls of my current setup, I tested eliminating the floor bounce with a bass trap(attached image). It did eliminate one of the last remaining nulls, but it made the sound(to my ears) worse. It really surprised me.
 

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voodooless

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Let's talk big then, because bigger is better, at least for a 2-way ;) a larger diameter cone will keep the surround further away from the tweeter, which will give fewer issues with a ragged response. It also loads the tweeter further down, giving a lower x-over point. Power handling will be better, and IMD will also benefit because excursions will be much less. For example, let's compare Faital 12HX500 and 6HX150, so 12" vs 6". Both are tuned at 40 Hz. Obviously the 6" is not really made for a 2-way, but it can still serve as an example:
1632995855635.png

Now let's bump up the signal so that we get 100dB at 50Hz:
1632995946046.png

This needs about 10W for the 12", and 4 times as much for the 6". So what is the excursion:
1632996028619.png

So the 12" is barely above 1mm, while the 6" is already reaching its Xmax with about 4mm. Even at 500 Hz, the difference is (relatively) significant. But it also shows why the surround can be so small in a 3-way: the 6" only needs 0.3mm excursion at 500Hz, SPL is actually 108 dB at that frequency.
 

Qbd

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It seems like sort of a common theme is that 2-way coaxials are considered problematic, though I’m not sure I fully grasp why. Is it only if they are used full range (without sub) that it’s considered bad, because of the high excursion?

I own such a speaker (Ascendo Immersive Audio CCRM12-P), crossed to a subwoofer at 80 Hz. But since I have neither golden ears nor a Klipper NFS I don’t know what would be wrong with it. What kinds of problems would be expected from such a design (coaxial 12-inch with horn compression tweeter)?

Personaly I love that I can stand up without the sound quality falling apart. I do get the urge to stand up from time to time when some good rock is playing, so I wouldn’t want a speaker with poor vertical dispersion.
 

sarumbear

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I know they are not co-axial but I wonder why very few try tweeter suspended tweeter in front of the woofer approach? There are a few manufacturers that deliver excellent results using that design. Geithhain below is one example,

A8F06CF7-2D65-48F2-A2AE-21426B13E40D.jpeg


Any ideas?
 

voodooless

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What kinds of problems would be expected from such a design (coaxial 12-inch with horn compression tweeter)?
In general those things tend to have pretty bad on-axis response. Off-axis some are quite good though. But the biggest issue is actually the lack of objective comparable data on those things. The datasheets rarely tell the full story, and good independent measurements are hard to find. Basically getting one of those is a huge gamble. That’s really what makes me hesitant go for it and consider other options..
 

voodooless

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I know they are not co-axial but I wonder why very few try tweeter suspended tweeter in front of the woofer approach? There are a few manufacturers that deliver excellent results using that design. Geithhain below is one example,

View attachment 161242

Any ideas?
For one, it’s technically indeed not a coaxial. The tweeter is not on the same axis as the woofer. Also the mounting plate blocks quite a bit of the woofer, that’s probably not a good idea. And finally the tweeter is not time aligned either. All of this makes it exceedingly hard to make a working design. And what’s up with that port? It could really do with some roundovers…
 
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Tonygeno

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For one, it’s technically not a coaxial. The tweeter is not on the same axis as the woofer. Also the mounting plate blocks quite a bit of the woofer, that’s probably not a good idea. And finally the tweeter is not time aligned either. And what’s up with that port? It could really do with some roundovers…
Isn’t that what he said?
 

sarumbear

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For one, it’s technically not a coaxial. The tweeter is not on the same axis as the woofer. Also the mounting plate blocks quite a bit of the woofer, that’s probably not a good idea. And finally the tweeter is not time aligned either. And what’s up with that port? It could really do with some roundovers…
I did say they are not coaxial at the very beginning of my post, haven't I?

It is easy to criticise as they are odd but you aught to study them and see how good their speakers measure. They are a very important European speaker manufacturer that nobody has heard of even though practically every broadcast control room has a pair. They are also the only speaker manufacturer who has their own anechoic chamber.

 

voodooless

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It is easy to criticise as they are odd but you aught to study them and see how good their speakers measure.
I never said they could not measure good. It’s just very hard to make them measure good. That is exactly the reason almost nobody does it. I think they are odd mostly to differentiate, not because it gives so many technical advantages.
They are also the only speaker manufacturer who has their own anechoic chamber.
I highly doubt that. As far as I know at least KEF has one. Hell, even B&W seems to now have multiple. Harman as well.
 
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thewas

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The better Geithains though at their 3-ways like 901K and 921K where just the woofer is partially covered by the "tweeter-mid-bridge" and due to the large wavelengths transmitted by the woofer doesn't cause as many problems as on their 2-ways.

RL901K-Perspektive_V1.png
 

thewas

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I highly doubt that. As far as I know at least KEF has one.
Also Neumann has one (been there myself same as to KEF) and quite many companies, in German except Geithain also Canton, I think now also Nubert and even Grundig had in the 1950s! already both an anechoic and reverberation room to measure and optimise the sound power of their systems!
Schalltoter -Raum 1950.jpg


Schallmessraum new.jpg


Source: http://saba-forum.dl2jas.com/index.php/Thread/6328-Die-kleine-Königin-von-Grundig-8056-W-3D/?postID=98696#post98696

 

voodooless

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The better Geithains though at their 3-ways like 901K and 921K where just the woofer is partially covered by the "tweeter-mid-bridge" and due to the large wavelengths transmitted by the woofer doesn't cause as many problems as on their 2-ways.

RL901K-Perspektive_V1.png
Yes, a 3-way works much better. But look what a partially covered cone does, here a very high end BMS coax (actually tri-axial):
7D9F9247-7710-4994-8308-7ED1157E32EF.jpeg

It’s quite a mess to clean up.

Same issues arise at the Genelec the Ones. Those square woofers are also covered quite a bit.
 

sarumbear

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I never said they could not measure good. It’s just very hard to make them measure good. That is exactly the reason almost nobody does it. I think they are odd mostly to differentiate, not because it gives so many technical advantages.
I don‘t know. I haven’t seen anyone doing and measuring it.
I highly doubt that. As far as I know at least KEF has one. Hell, even B&W seems to now have multiple.
I‘m sorry I should have said wide bandwidth anechoic room. I think KEF’s room is anechoic about 120Hz as it is small. The German one is very big, build during the Eastern Germany days where cost was no object. Hence, they can test bass.
 

sarumbear

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Also Neumann has one (been there myself same as to KEF) and quite many companies, in German except Geithain also Canton, I think now also Nubert and even Grundig had in the 1950s! already both an anechoic and reverberation room to measure and optimise the sound power of their systems!
View attachment 161248

View attachment 161249

Source: http://saba-forum.dl2jas.com/index.php/Thread/6328-Die-kleine-Königin-von-Grundig-8056-W-3D/?postID=98696#post98696

But do those exist now?
 

thewas

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But do those exist now?
Grundig unfortunately not, but Canton and Nubert do, being some of the most sold loudspeakers in Germany, Canton actually even in whole Europe.
 

Matias

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There are many in ceiling coax speakers. For example, Monitor Audio Core C265. I wonder how they measure either in ceiling or mounted in an enclosure.

IMG_20211007_064315.jpg


IMG_20211007_064401.jpg
 
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sarumbear

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Are you asking if KEF still exists ;)? Nubert and Canton are also very much alive..
I was asking for Grundig as that was the only picture of a wide bandwidth room.
 

thewas

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Yes, a 3-way works much better. But look what a partially covered cone does, here a very high end BMS coax (actually tri-axial):
7D9F9247-7710-4994-8308-7ED1157E32EF.jpeg

It’s quite a mess to clean up.

Same issues arise at the Genelec the Ones. Those square woofers are also covered quite a bit.
I see no real mess at the here discussed woofer if crossed at a reasonable frequency (below 500 Hz). :)
 
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