ATC speakers / Monitors

[Chrise36]

I agree with you, measurements are great for initial expectations, design and confirming observations. But I have also seen a lot of measurements that looked almost perfect, where I could not believe my ears when I heard the speakers. Kali In-8, JBL 308p, Burchardt A500, Arendal, Neumann 310 among others. Not as good in real world use as they “should” be. There are aspects of speakers that fall between usual measurement data, and would probably require a different measurement approach.

What did not you like about the KH310. I would expect this to sound pretty good.

 

[thewas]

When i apply DSP to my system it measures great but sounds shit how can i back this up in a right manner without my personal opinion?

Because you cannot just flatten the total steady state response at the listeners position, it is all well known, see the first link in my signature. Still people prefer loudspeakers with anechoically the flattest on-axis response and the smoothest directivity.

 

[Purité Audio]

When i apply DSP to my system it measures great but sounds shit how can i back this up in a right manner without my personal opinion?

Removing boomy bass always sounds shit.
Keith

 

[Chrise36]

Removing boomy bass always sounds shit.
Keith

No Keith it is about the dynamics that DSP suppresses. The problem is that the measurement in the LP does not reflect the reality.

 

[Purité Audio]

I am learning so much from you and Torb it is a real education.
Keith

 

[thewas]

No Keith it is about the dynamics that DSP suppresses.

A filter/EQ/DSP cannot transform poor acoustics into good ones, that is known.

The problem is that the measurement in the LP does not reflect the reality.

That is also known, that's why the steady state measurements at the LP are only useful to correct in the modal region.

 

[Chrise36]

We are talking about the speaker and the room in the case of Torbachkristensen and how he can prove that it sounds good in the LP. What should the measurements show in his case that would prove it sounds good?

 

[Chrise36]

I am learning so much from you and Torb it is a real education.
Keith

You should learn from Amir then ask him if that is true

 

[thewas]

We are talking about the speaker and the room in the case of Torbachkristensen and how he can prove that it sounds good in the LP. What should the measurements show in his case that would prove it sounds good?

A good loudspeaker placed in a room with good acoustics will give at the LP also a relatively smooth measured response with no large or wide peaks and dips. Of course to fully evaluate the objective performance of a loudspeaker a full spinorama and other anechoic measurents are needed.

 

[Chrise36]

A filter/EQ/DSP cannot transform poor acoustics into good ones, that is known.


That is also known, that's why the steady state measurements at the LP are only useful to correct in the modal region.

Sure i think a whole system eq is not the right way to do it. A multichannel dsp is the better approach

 

[Purité Audio]

You should learn from Amir then ask him if that is true

You believe Amir lies?
Keith

 

[tw99]

Is this discussion actually going anywhere now ? Maybe you should all take a deep breath, step away from the keyboards and/or take the whole thing to one of the other "measurements are everything / no they're not" threads ?

We could leave this thread for future discussion of things that are actually ATC specific.

 

[Frgirard]

Cette discussion va-t-elle vraiment quelque part maintenant ? Peut-être devriez-vous tous prendre une profonde respiration, vous éloigner des claviers et/ou prendre le tout dans l'un des autres fils "les mesures sont tout / non ce ne sont pas" ?

Nous pourrions laisser ce fil pour une discussion future sur des choses qui sont en fait spécifiques à l'ATC.

Choosing a speaker by ear is like choosing a partner on a photo and a description. Personally, I decided to rely solely on the measure, however imperfect it may be. Take a breath of fresh air and tell us why the best brand on the planet refuses.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

What did not you like about the KH310. I would expect this to sound pretty good.

They do sound good. For me it was a low-end headroom problem (remember that especially mixing demand quite a lot of transient headroom), and slighly too soft HF and High Mid. Not a bad speaker, but not as good as I had hoped.

 

[YSC]

We are talking about the speaker and the room in the case of Torbachkristensen and how he can prove that it sounds good in the LP. What should the measurements show in his case that would prove it sounds good?

I dont think anyone argues here say his setup didn't sound good, it's a matter of how good it is, and it's different for a untuned setup in room from the DSP tuning a setup above schroeder frequency. I think it's pretty well know a anechoic flat speaker above t he schroeder frequency should be what chased after and the less room induced variation the better, even if say his setup is tuned by the designer of the whole room, by DSP, it can still shows in a real good setup, the distortion is low and phase is really lined up and great etc. I remember seeing somewhere quite a while ago in ASR the D&D 8C or even Amirm's Salon 2 in room is not really flat or anything near to the predicted in room response, so this ask for measurement is at least, for me to be seeing how well technically the whole thing including the room and the contractor to build that can go, and in future, if someone with a Genelec, or XYZ brand studio can do similar measurements and we start to have a comparison.

it's sort of like arguing or debating whether a Ferrari or Lambo or a Nissan GTR is faster, measurements are like the 0-100, power to weight ratio etc, and in room measurement is IMO, a way to measure a whole system performance, more like the Nurburgring lap time for sport cars.

 

[dfuller]

They do sound good. For me it was a low-end headroom problem (remember that especially mixing demand quite a lot of transient headroom), and slighly too soft HF and High Mid. Not a bad speaker, but not as good as I had hoped.

They 100% work better with a sub, FWIW. They're small sealed boxes, they run out of steam real quick below about 60hz. I say this as a KH310 owner.

 

[Chrise36]

I dont think anyone argues here say his setup didn't sound good, it's a matter of how good it is, and it's different for a untuned setup in room from the DSP tuning a setup above schroeder frequency. I think it's pretty well know a anechoic flat speaker above t he schroeder frequency should be what chased after and the less room induced variation the better, even if say his setup is tuned by the designer of the whole room, by DSP, it can still shows in a real good setup, the distortion is low and phase is really lined up and great etc. I remember seeing somewhere quite a while ago in ASR the D&D 8C or even Amirm's Salon 2 in room is not really flat or anything near to the predicted in room response, so this ask for measurement is at least, for me to be seeing how well technically the whole thing including the room and the contractor to build that can go, and in future, if someone with a Genelec, or XYZ brand studio can do similar measurements and we start to have a comparison.

it's sort of like arguing or debating whether a Ferrari or Lambo or a Nissan GTR is faster, measurements are like the 0-100, power to weight ratio etc, and in room measurement is IMO, a way to measure a whole system performance, more like the Nurburgring lap time for sport cars.

We would have to blend the anechoic response with the in room below Schroeder and apply the psychoacoustic filter then. Sorry if being off topic

 

[YSC]

We would have to blend the anechoic response with the in room below Schroeder and apply the psychoacoustic filter then. Sorry if being off topic

I actually tried this, doing full range EQ and only EQ the schroeder frequency (~400hz in my tiny cage sized room), both doing psychoacoustic filter EQ and full range EQ makes the image and balance of the setup seriously off, while below schroeder frequence EQ made the imaging slightly improved (maybe my bias, who knows) and fixed boominess, in bass region I managed to do boost the null zone with trial (ended up like 7db of boost and although the bass distortion was kept below 5% which I found unnoticeable in 40hz), it seems to me that our brain is really good at separating the comb filtering effects and ablle to focus on direct sound above schroeder frequency.

Thus I believe that even in room, you need a speaker to be anechoic flatter the better, of course other factors like distortion, or the room reflection minor defects like me putting the genelecs on a desk as gaming speaker have. and for major studio using ATC and PMC alike, I truely believe (or hope, wish in my heart) that their pro line is really something good, if not spectacular. so when considering those soffit mounted monsters usually came with a designed room, I would really want to see the in room, not anechoic measurement, so we kind of have a reference point of what kind of curve the mixing studio was referencing upon when producing our music. wild guessing would be something of a sloping curve if not the harman target curve.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

I dont think anyone argues here say his setup didn't sound good, it's a matter of how good it is, and it's different for a untuned setup in room from the DSP tuning a setup above schroeder frequency. I think it's pretty well know a anechoic flat speaker above t he schroeder frequency should be what chased after and the less room induced variation the better, even if say his setup is tuned by the designer of the whole room, by DSP, it can still shows in a real good setup, the distortion is low and phase is really lined up and great etc. I remember seeing somewhere quite a while ago in ASR the D&D 8C or even Amirm's Salon 2 in room is not really flat or anything near to the predicted in room response, so this ask for measurement is at least, for me to be seeing how well technically the whole thing including the room and the contractor to build that can go, and in future, if someone with a Genelec, or XYZ brand studio can do similar measurements and we start to have a comparison.

it's sort of like arguing or debating whether a Ferrari or Lambo or a Nissan GTR is faster, measurements are like the 0-100, power to weight ratio etc, and in room measurement is IMO, a way to measure a whole system performance, more like the Nurburgring lap time for sport cars.

I totally get where you are coming from, but I don't really have the measurement skills or time to do it properly, and of course spinorama is not possible on a soffit mount I can easily look at and understand measurements, but I have no experience with extensive measuring. I have some initial REW files from earlier stages of the build done by the room designer - I don't mind sharing those. But they were the foundation of some of the later treatment so maybe not of much use. I will see what I can dig up, and maybe start looking into how I could do my own measurements. I have a calibrated microphone, but I guess it would at least take some tools measure the right angles etc.

 

[Draki]

I totally get where you are coming from, but I don't really have the measurement skills or time to do it properly, and of course spinorama is not possible on a soffit mount I can easily look at and understand measurements, but I have no experience with extensive measuring. I have some initial REW files from earlier stages of the build done by the room designer - I don't mind sharing those. But they were the foundation of some of the later treatment so maybe not of much use. I will see what I can dig up, and maybe start looking into how I could do my own measurements. I have a calibrated microphone, but I guess it would at least take some tools measure the right angles etc.

Take a look at this:

https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf