Another guy on Youtube going to visit Danny down in texas....

[MattHooper]

I often wonder just how happy they are with the purchase because when the next video comes out they will want/buy that product.

That's gives voice to a sort of running theme in this forum: that unless you are buying based on reliable information like measurements and seeking accuracy etc, then you are left to the clutches of unreliable subjective reports, leading to an endless upgrade treadmill and one is more miserable for it.

I don't think we actually have the empirical data to make that case either way. As I said, we tend to want to find justifications for our own approach over someone else's, and this can be part of the story some are telling themselves. It may certainly be true for some forum members (I've definitely seen people who said they used to buy lots of gear, but since taking a more objective stance, have stuck with gear bought that way).

Yet we see plenty of salivating about new gear on ASR, people upgrading etc. Even moving from competent designs by KEF to wanting something new KEF has brought out, or adding subs, or switching for other objectively good speakers, or gear. It's a human condition that doesn't just vanish. And it will be quite individual as to how people move in this space.

For every ASR member saying "buying X gear - e.g. ASR-approved - got me off the equipment treadmill" you can find people in "subjectivist" forums saying "I bought Harbeth speakers (or whatever) and it got me off the treadmill." People find satisfaction with a wide variety of options. I have a friend who has owned Quad ESL 57s for the last 40 years. I couldn't live with those as my only speakers. He's happy.

There's also the aspect of being judgemental about people who buy lots of gear, or who have bought and sold all sorts of speakers over their audiophile career - the idea that this has to be seen as a downer or something everyone is looking to be "cured" of. No. Some people find gear to be a hobby, they get off on buying and trying all sorts of stuff. It's like saying to a car enthusiast who has 6 different sports cars in his garage "when are you going to get off the treadmill and finally make a decision that satisfies you?" Well, that would be missing the fact this person may well actually enjoy owning various different cars...he's not aiming for One Car To Rule Them All And Retire....he likes what makes each car different.

So even pointing to the fact that any audiophile owns, or has owned, multiple systems or lots of gear over time doesn't in of itself suggest some psychological problem that has to be "cured" by "just buying gear that measures the way we at ASR care about so he can finally just call it quits."

(I've owned neutral gear and colored gear over the years, often at the same time, and I can enjoy both).

 

[jsrtheta]

Admittedly I haven't finished listening to the podcast (don't know if I will), but what I heard seemed to be running on a similar track to previous Darko writings and podcasts on this issue.

And my hackles did get raised when Darko mentioned "scientism" because that term is the calling card of countless crank, pseudo-science and religious apologists. If you dare bring up the relevance of science to their claims, they whip out the "that's just scientism" card. I've dealt with it a million times. And is generally a pejorative term invented for that purpose. It's held up as a stop sign "Science Doesn't Apply Here!" The idea being that the "scientistic" person is trying to apply science beyond it's ken, where it can't really be used. The first thing is that most people who speak of "scientism" don't seem to realize really just how far science can be, and is applied. One of the main drivers of science is ingenuity - in how questions that previously seemed perhaps unanswerable have become answered, or capable of investigation.

So, yes, for various reasons, including the practical, science can't be applied everywhere. But usually people raising "scientism" are making a bad case that it can't, or hasn't yet, been applied to their pet belief system.

As for accusations of scientism at ASR: I generally don't find that happening here. I don't see a lot of science being misapplied - to places it doesn't belong or can't investigate.

I do sometimes see something of a slightly different nature: That by virtue of appealing to science, one is making a sort of objectively sound argument.
"The facts are on my side, I'm appealing to the most objective form of knowledge we have, so my argument is therefore stronger than the other person's who may not be directly appealing to science." The mistake there is to imagine that valuing science entails you are making good arguments any time you adduce science. You can study all the science in the world, and still make mistakes of reasoning when putting together claims and arguments. (That's part of why the Appeal To Authority is known as a fallacy; we evaluate the truth or soundness of a claim based on the strength of the evidence/argument, not based on who is making the argument, authority or otherwise).

Accusations of "scientism" are just another way of saying "Don't confuse me with the facts!"

 

[fuzzychaos]

Personally, after so many threads and videos, I think both sides have their whiney zealots and I am starting to tire of the fighting and name calling. The objectivists are probably not going to convert any subjectivists and vise versa. The extremists of both sides are petulant children.
I use measurements to guide me in the right direction, but listen to certain items to make a decision like speakers, for example. Even though I don’t think things like cables make any difference and I can’t hear any difference in DAC’s, etc, those who do are free to spend their money on them and if they do “hear” a difference then good for them. Why would anyone want to argue with them about it? It seems that now it’s never a good idea to argue politics, religion or audio.

(Of course I know I can just ignore the threads and videos, which is what I will do, I just wish we could move past this and get on with the enjoyment of being into audio)

 

[amirm]

Why would anyone want to argue with them about it?

Because they go on youtube, amass large audiences and tell people they must spend money on this and that tweak. Tons and tons of people post in my videos that they had no idea these things had no merit until they watched my video. Many are skeptical but when they see unanimous promotion by every youtuber and random online person, they think they should go with the flow.

Creating videos is a lot of work for me. But the pay off is significant in that regard.

Also, keep in mind that no one has tried to perform comprehensive test after test to show why these things don't work. Just a few years ago if you were challenged, you were hard pressed to point to any solid set of tests to prove that tweaks don't work. But now, you have review after review I have done on these products. Lately I have also added null tests. This is proving to be transformative.

Finally, we need to have a voice as loud as these guys to make sure we are heard. On this site, we have accomplished that now, dwarfing the traffic of many subjectivist sites. On youtube however, we were absent until mid last year. Now we are growing but still coming from behind with 31K subscribes. Once the playing field is leveled, then we can opine as to whether our efforts are worthwhile or not. Early indications are that it is.

 

[amirm]

He claims to have some hooks into the NRC. Not sure why the NRC would waste any bandwidth on a speaker that Amir has already measured.

He has become a reviewer for Soundstage magazine (although this is his personal youtube channel). Soundstage as you know has a long time contract with NRC to make anechoic measurements for them. He is using that connection to get the speaker tested. I am told the tests costs fair amount of money (in the thousands I think). So will be interesting to see if this becomes a Soundstage review.

 

[Rick Sykora]

He has become a reviewer for Soundstage magazine (although this is his personal youtube channel). Soundstage as you know has a long time contract with NRC to make anechoic measurements for them. He is using that connection to get the speaker tested. I am told the tests costs fair amount of money (in the thousands I think). So will be interesting to see if this becomes a Soundstage review.

I have also read that the Encore speaker that Jay has is some uber version. Not sure all of what is different but heard it uses foil inductors. Still would be a waste of NRC resources to test IMO. Would be more interesting to know how it compares to his only other DiY speaker - the CSS 1TDX. He raves about the CSS.

 

[muad]

Danny recently was touting in his comments that he does crossover work for some of the big companies, but won't say which one. I think he is pretty much full of it, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyone. Have any idea which company?

 

[Zensō]

I’m amused at the fact that the perceived audible difference is always an improvement.

Right, just like ”burning in”.

 

[DanielT]

At the same time in/with, Texas, ... I Do Not Want A Lover, I just need a friend, ....... nop you need unnecessarily expensive power cords.

Edit:

If Jay buys from Danny, he gets a friend in Danny per se.

 

[jae]

People strongly associate music with limitless creativity of expression and the moods and emotions thereof, but the problem is that it is natural to conflate the production and appreciation of music with its reproduction. This behaviour is part of the attempt to turn a more-or-less passive activity like listening or watching into an active one that they could potentially manipulate and control to a greater degree, and no doubt there are many reasons why someone could feel this way. In the most passionate or extreme individuals, it often manifests itself as parasocial-esque connections with anything to do with the hobby, those in it, or even inanimate components, equipment etc- the type you are more likely to engage with online or some sort of convention or meetup, or see writing articles or making videos on the internet. It does not mean all the people who do these things are of the same mind, but it heavily skews one way.

Most of that behaviour seems like a effort to be emotionally engaged and immersed in the process above all else. Scientific explanations are often ignored, rejected, or met with scepticism because it is the intuition of many to think that such matter-of-fact (and perhaps even underwhelming or simple) scientific deductions when it comes to sound or whatever associated "good practices" of how it should be reproduced in fact betrays the original sentiment of boundlessness in music. In their mind, if one is going to limit how it is reproduced, then they will surely be limiting the breadth of expression and emotions related to it, right? Why are these know-it-all lab coats trying to ruin my perfectly good dopamine cocktail I've shaken or stirred for myself? This thing made me hear something I never heard before, I felt it, heard it, so it must be truth.

People are free of course to do what they want, and while music itself can be a very abstract thing, there is over a century of scientific research in regards to not only the engineering but the neurological and psycho-acoustic understanding of sound as it relates to humans and our environments. Ignoring this on a whim or at behest of fantasy is almost some combination of delusion, ignorance or stupidity. It is fine to be curious or challenge the veracity, but they rarely do. And of course, the best tool to verify the science itself or to disprove my own claims is another scientific approach like blind testing! They are using science to prove science, so I can never win. But I swear I heard a difference!

After consulting with an expert, practically all of these people who readily reject scientific explanations of what is audible or not, would probably take drugs or undergo medical procedures to help or enhance their life, so they obviously appreciate experts and the veracity of research and science in general, even if there is some risk involved, and even if they know nothing of the explanations or intricacies of the topic. They just actively choose not to when they believe it would detract from their life, or hurt them or the enjoyment of something they love. Or make them feel foolish for wasting money. When it comes to reviewers and people profiting from the industry, there is the added factor of it also detracting from their bottom line and livelihoods, so an even greater vigilance is necessary.

The fact of the matter is that, research shows an anechoically flat speaker with low distortion that meets whatever conditions appropriate for your preference with respect to listening distance/SPL/directivity/room etc. will sound the best to 80%+ of people, conservatively speaking. As such, in 2022 with this data available, most "hi-fi"/audiophile speakers being sold and marketed probably would not exist if those buying had the requisite understanding and even more so if those selling them did. So their sales and marketing are to some degree parasitic. There is still some variance between the preference and needs of each individual, but this is where making a scientifically-informed choice shines the most because it is useful to quantify said preferences to know whether or not they can be feasibly satisfied within whatever limitations or challenges present.

The most ironic thing is that those who you would intuitively expect to be the most arbitrarily influenced by emotion and preference such as the musicians themselves or producers etc. are the ones using the professional gear and speakers that no reviewer considers as appropriate for the hobby. But they are the ones that most accurately convey that limitless creativity and expression. So I think for many it is utter hubris and delusion under comfortable excuse of "preference" or "variety".

 

[Chromatischism]

He's full of hot air. I watched his review videos and he waxes on and on about sounds and what he hears.

I find Jay's observations of speakers pretty accurate. At least he tries his best to describe things in words. Amps and other things, I remain skeptical but I don't care about them as much.

 

[Vacceo]

Because they go on youtube, amass large audiences and tell people they must spend money on this and that tweak. Tons and tons of people post in my videos that they had no idea these things had no merit until they watched my video. Many are skeptical but when they see unanimous promotion by every youtuber and random online person, they think they should go with the flow.

Creating videos is a lot of work for me. But the pay off is significant in that regard.

Also, keep in mind that no one has tried to perform comprehensive test after test to show why these things don't work. Just a few years ago if you were challenged, you were hard pressed to point to any solid set of tests to prove that tweaks don't work. But now, you have review after review I have done on these products. Lately I have also added null tests. This is proving to be transformative.

Finally, we need to have a voice as loud as these guys to make sure we are heard. On this site, we have accomplished that now, dwarfing the traffic of many subjectivist sites. On youtube however, we were absent until mid last year. Now we are growing but still coming from behind with 31K subscribes. Once the playing field is leveled, then we can opine as to whether our efforts are worthwhile or not. Early indications are that it is.

The fact that a big name in audio such as Anthem has chosen to push the path of engineering excellence (or so they claim with the AVM90) or that another big player like Sound United takes your product reviews seriosly is precisely why your work is crucial. We are just the amplification (of course class D!).

Having some big names around here like Dr. Toole, Dr. Oclee-Brown, Hypex and readers like the guys on Purifi is another big hit that adds gravitas to your endevours. .Doing good engineering and sending you a sample to get a full review is becoming, slowly but steadily, a mark of quality.

And that can only benefit us. If the industry massively takes a scientific and rational, methodic approach to the creation of its products, that can only benefit us, end users. Keep the art and creativity for the sources (films, games, music, series...) and the cold, logical, calculated numbers for the devices that play it..

 

[Astrozombie]

I subscribed to that dudes patreon a while ago to see his "tiers" and he basically put anything affordable on the bottom level, nothing but expensive stuff nobody will ever hear or buy in the rest of his rankings.

 

[fuzzychaos]

Because they go on youtube, amass large audiences and tell people they must spend money on this and that tweak. Tons and tons of people post in my videos that they had no idea these things had no merit until they watched my video. Many are skeptical but when they see unanimous promotion by every youtuber and random online person, they think they should go with the flow.

Creating videos is a lot of work for me. But the pay off is significant in that regard.

Also, keep in mind that no one has tried to perform comprehensive test after test to show why these things don't work. Just a few years ago if you were challenged, you were hard pressed to point to any solid set of tests to prove that tweaks don't work. But now, you have review after review I have done on these products. Lately I have also added null tests. This is proving to be transformative.

Finally, we need to have a voice as loud as these guys to make sure we are heard. On this site, we have accomplished that now, dwarfing the traffic of many subjectivist sites. On youtube however, we were absent until mid last year. Now we are growing but still coming from behind with 31K subscribes. Once the playing field is leveled, then we can opine as to whether our efforts are worthwhile or not. Early indications are that it is.

Duly noted, but I still think we just need to settle down a bit. All I really anted to say is let’s not stoop to their level. Let the science speak for itself. It’s great that you are gaining video subscribers, but I think that once LTT (Linus Tech Tips) gets going with their lab, that will get many (many, many, many) more eyes than any of the YouTube reviewers (over 14 million subscribers). If he starts measuring all audio components, which seems potentially likely, then the masses will be subjected to a plethora of measurements. Perhaps they, LTT, will use ASR as consultants?

 

[Bruce Morgen]

But are all the youtubers perpetrators? If someone tells me that cables make a difference and I try it and think I hear a difference and then I tell other people that it makes a difference am I perpetrator or a victim?

Yes.

 

[amirm]

Duly noted, but I still think we just need to settle down a bit. All I really anted to say is let’s not stoop to their level. Let the science speak for itself. It’s great that you are gaining video subscribers, but I think that once LTT (Linus Tech Tips) gets going with their lab, that will get many (many, many, many) more eyes than any of the YouTube reviewers (over 14 million subscribers). If he starts measuring all audio components, which seems potentially likely, then the masses will be subjected to a plethora of measurements. Perhaps they, LTT, will use ASR as consultants?

I have no interest in consulting for anyone. As for them getting into audio testing, they don't know what they are in for. All the complaining, whining, badgering, etc. Heck, I have people making youtube videos complaining about my test results. He has seen nothing yet. If he is smart, he would stay way the heck away from audio. None of his current credentials carries any water with rabid audiophiles.

As to your starting comment, I have not remotely stooped to anyone's level. I take what they say and make a technical topic out of it. Feedback from youtube watchers is overwhelmingly positive. It is in the forum where people find nothing better to do than to protest.

 

[delta76]

Duly noted, but I still think we just need to settle down a bit. All I really anted to say is let’s not stoop to their level. Let the science speak for itself. It’s great that you are gaining video subscribers, but I think that once LTT (Linus Tech Tips) gets going with their lab, that will get many (many, many, many) more eyes than any of the YouTube reviewers (over 14 million subscribers). If he starts measuring all audio components, which seems potentially likely, then the masses will be subjected to a plethora of measurements. Perhaps they, LTT, will use ASR as consultants?

You overestimate how many people would be interested in measurements. When people buy audio equipment, the main question is "how does it sound". They would like to hear things like "bright", "warm", "wide soundstage" etc. Also, measurements are quite a bar to get into. I am still clueless about most of the graphs and usually just skip to the last paragraph (and the pref. score). ASR is gaining traction but we still only represent a small amount of people interested in audio.
It could be very interesting if people like LTT do a video like "Does an AC cord make any acoustic difference to your speakers" where they can explain why it does not matter however, but I don't expect they to do review of each like Amir do.

 

[tomtoo]

I have no interest in consulting for anyone. As for them getting into audio testing, they don't know what they are in for. All the complaining, whining, badgering, etc. Heck, I have people making youtube videos complaining about my test results. He has seen nothing yet. If he is smart, he would stay way the heck away from audio. None of his current credentials carries any water with rabid audiophiles.

As to your starting comment, I have not remotely stooped to anyone's level. I take what they say and make a technical topic out of it. Feedback from youtube watchers is overwhelmingly positive. It is in the forum where people find nothing better to do than to protest.

"... It is in the forum where people find nothing better to do than to protest..."

At least you should be a littel proud, that this forum is full of people that think, and with this critics come. I not say that it is always right or wrong, but its here. And i understand this can be very exhausting. But its here, and thats imo much better than having only yes sayers.

 

[Gregm]

You overestimate how many people would be interested in measurements.

My impression as well.

When people buy audio equipment, the main question is "how does it sound". They would like to hear things like "bright", "warm", "wide soundstage" etc. Also, measurements are quite a bar to get into.

And yet, when it comes to speakers, you could, at least loosely, correlate measurements to perceived subjective criteria... take the frequency response chart for example; in my case, I could expect...
A "tiring" speaker where the summed Klippel doesn't have a downward slope (i.e. loose 3-5dB from 100 - 10kHz).
Generally speaking, a speaker with:
- a slight bump around the 250 region: "warm-ish"
- no dip or a slight + in the 500-2 kHz region might make the speaker sound "dynamic"
- slightly pronounced 500-2kHz: sweet, "mid-range to die for", etc
- dip in the 2-4kHz region: lack of clarity, unfocused, "warm"
- dip further up: dull, lacks sense of space /
- nice smooth upper treble: sense of space, etc
Of course this is all subjective -- but then, the answer to the question "how does it sound" is also subjective. The difference is that the measurement gives you sound-related clues, enough that you could correlate to YOUR "subjectivity" (your prefs, etc) rather than someone else's! Regards

 

[amirm]

You overestimate how many people would be interested in measurements.

We don't just talk about measurements. We cover audio technology and science end to end. This has strong appeal. It has propelled us to top of the charts as far as social media/forums. Don't underestimate how much audiophiles value reliable facts and logic. We dwarf sites like stereophile now:

Yet we practically didn't register on above tracking sites three or four years ago!