• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Another guy on Youtube going to visit Danny down in texas....

beagleman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
802
Likes
1,005


I thought this "Kid" had potential, but after seeing this video, seems he is just falling in line with Danny and his ilk. He talks about MUCH MUCH BETTER sounding with Danny's speaker cables......:facepalm::facepalm:


Thirteen or so minutes in for those that get bored easily!
 

MattHooper

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
4,455
Likes
7,134


I thought this "Kid" had potential, but after seeing this video, seems he is just falling in line with Danny and his ilk. He talks about MUCH MUCH BETTER sounding with Danny's speaker cables......:facepalm::facepalm:


Thirteen or so minutes in for those that get bored easily!

I find getting through these videos somewhat torturous, but I did make it far enough to see that he claims to have done blind A/B comparisons when adjudicating the "sound" of the cables, which he will get in to in his review of the cables.

It will be interesting to see his methodology and results.
 
OP
B

beagleman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
802
Likes
1,005
I find getting through these videos somewhat torturous, but I did make it far enough to see that he claims to have done blind A/B comparisons when adjudicating the "sound" of the cables, which he will get in to in his review of the cables.

It will be interesting to see his methodology and results.

I am not sure if he was doing Blind comparisons, which are meaningful or simply A/B comparisons, which hold far less weight usually.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
17,117
Likes
29,797
I think it shows ASR is slowly having an effect. Many now see it as boosting credibility that they have done blind testing. Unfortunately it usually means some poor methods are being paraded around which aren't blind or even useful.
 

MattHooper

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
4,455
Likes
7,134
I think it shows ASR is slowly having an effect. Many now see it as boosting credibility that they have done blind testing. Unfortunately it usually means some poor methods are being paraded around which aren't blind or even useful.

ASR is reverberating all around the Audio Web. ASR is now the Elephant In The Room that many feel they have to address at some point.

I notice Darko just did another podcast on measurements in which they often reference ASR. It's a push-back show. So naturally we find
dissing of SINAD etc:


Not surprisingly, since Darko is often trying to build the case for uncontrolled, subjective listening and some dubious claims, he brought on Cameron from Golden Sound. Cameran seems like a good fellow. He's perfect for Darko's purposes: someone who is (or sounds) technically literate, but who will also coddle the "we can't yet measure everything we hear" side, so as to bring some elbow room for Darko's subjectivity.

Cameran seemed to me to make some interesting points, and seemed most convincing when referencing measurements and research. But he lost me in those times where he'd claim that sometimes you can't measure everything you hear, because after all he's heard differences between components that measured similarly, or found the sound of another component that didn't measure well but "we all know sounds great." No controlled tests were offered for those opinions. Catnip for the subjective-only crowd.
 
Last edited:

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
39,953
Likes
185,290
Location
Seattle Area
I thought this "Kid" had potential, but after seeing this video, seems he is just falling in line with Danny and his ilk.
The truth is simple: they both made a mistake going after each other. Danny making enemies of all youtube reviewers was bad for business as it created the potential of them getting his speakers and saying they are awful. Jay's response video was full of anger and resentment which would work if Danny was a nobody. But he has a 50K subscriber army which he could ill afford making an enemy out of.

The rest of the story now is how they erase the past mistakes and hold hands in the future. To wit, Danny said so in his last video that "jay is a good reviewer because now he can hear differences in cables!" And now have this video in return of how Danny's cables are better than generic and how he loves the sound of his speaker.
 

MattHooper

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
4,455
Likes
7,134
It seems to me that subjectivists share a common trait: they think that if you repeat a lie often enough and loudly enough, it becomes fact.

Not true. Jim

Not sure it helps to call them liars. Do you reject the idea that they actually believe what they say?

Astounding numbers of people in the world believe astounding things. Being mistaken - that is being human - is the more charitable, parsimonious inference, IMO.
 

Midwest Blade

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
378
Likes
504
Still watch an occasional Darko vid and pretty much ignore the rest. Keep my audio YouTube focused on ASR and Erin.
 

Jim Taylor

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 22, 2020
Messages
1,571
Likes
3,396
Not sure it helps to call them liars. Do you reject the idea that they actually believe what they say?

Astounding numbers of people in the world believe astounding things. Being mistaken - that is being human - is the more charitable, parsimonious inference, IMO.

The source of my post, and the philosophy behind it, is a quote mis-attributed to, variously Hitler, Goebbels or Lenin. It runs, " If a lie is only printed often enough, it becomes a quasi-truth, and if such a truth is repeated often enough, it becomes an article of belief, a dogma, and men will die for it."

It seems, per StackExchange and Snopes, that the original was from "The Crown of a Life", printed in 1869, by Isabella Blagden. In my mind, the principle was undoubtedly older.

As for believing what they say: when I used the term "subjectivist", I didn't make any distinction between the perpetrators and the victims. That was a mistake on my part.

So .... do the victims believe these mistruths? Yes, I say that they do, and that is a tragedy. Do the perpetrators believe what they foist on the victims? That I cannot believe. The essence of a scam or con is that the perpetrator knows what they are doing, knows that it is false, and deliberately does it anyway. If that were not true, con artists and their ilk would not be prosecutable.

Look at it another way: for a person to consistently choose that which is wrong, they must first know what is right or they would otherwise have no reference.

Jim
 

ta240

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
876
Likes
1,423
But are all the youtubers perpetrators? If someone tells me that cables make a difference and I try it and think I hear a difference and then I tell other people that it makes a difference am I perpetrator or a victim?
 

MattHooper

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
4,455
Likes
7,134
So .... do the victims believe these mistruths? Yes, I say that they do, and that is a tragedy. Do the perpetrators believe what they foist on the victims? That I cannot believe. The essence of a scam or con is that the perpetrator knows what they are doing, knows that it is false, and deliberately does it anyway. If that were not true, con artists and their ilk would not be prosecutable.

I know that some here see much of high end audio equipment as a scam of sorts - a knowing one by the manufacturers.

As I've argued before, I still think a majority of manufacturers believe in what they are doing. Most high end manufacturers are relatively small businesses, and many arose from the passion of an audiophile (e.g. who started designing his own amps, speakers or whatever) starting a business.

So long as the beliefs and methodology for these manufacturers is the same as when they were fledgling audiophiles - or that is, so long as the methodology they use is flawed like the methodology of most "subjective" audiophiles, then they will come to beliefs in the same way.

The guy making or selling "higher end" capacitors or whatever, if he's vetting his beliefs by trial and error uncontrolled subjective listening, then he will come to believe he's hearing improvements just as readily as his customer.

It's the old "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" heuristic. Where stupidity is unecessarily derisive, just replace with "faulty methodology."

Does my blood boil when I see all those nutty cable prices? You bet! And I absolutely feel the desire to attribute cynical hucksterism (of which I'm SURE there is some). But more broadly speaking, it's my view that a good portion of manufacturers who many here think are selling overpriced crap, likely really believe in their products.


Look at it another way: for a person to consistently choose that which is wrong, they must first know what is right or they would otherwise have no reference.

Jim

To be picky, that doesn't follow. It doesn't require the person choosing knows right from wrong; it just requires someone else to know this and make that judgement. That's why we can adults can know certain actions by, say, toddlers/young children are wrong or anti-social, before they understand the moral import of what they are doing.

Again, just contemplate the utterly astounding variety of false beliefs people hold in this world. They really don't know they are mistaken. (I feel particularly mindful of this as I've long had in interest in people with fringe beliefs. I was just listening to a podcast episode of Oh No Ross and Carrie,who investigate all manner of fringe belief systems, even joining cults themselves, and the stories of what people earnestly, mistakenly believe that pour out of those investigations is continually astonishing).
 

Somafunk

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
813
Likes
1,743
Location
Scotland
If someone tells me that cables make a difference

I’m amused at the fact that the perceived audible difference is always an improvement.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
17,117
Likes
29,797
I know that some here see much of high end audio equipment as a scam of sorts - a knowing one by the manufacturers.

As I've argued before, I still think a majority of manufacturers believe in what they are doing. Most high end manufacturers are relatively small businesses, and many arose from the passion of an audiophile (e.g. who started designing his own amps, speakers or whatever) starting a business.

So long as the beliefs and methodology for these manufacturers is the same as when they were fledgling audiophiles - or that is, so long as the methodology they use is flawed like the methodology of most "subjective" audiophiles, then they will come to beliefs in the same way.

The guy making or selling "higher end" capacitors or whatever, if he's vetting his beliefs by trial and error uncontrolled subjective listening, then he will come to believe he's hearing improvements just as readily as his customer.

It's the old "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" heuristic. Where stupidity is unecessarily derisive, just replace with "faulty methodology."

Does my blood boil when I see all those nutty cable prices? You bet! And I absolutely feel the desire to attribute cynical hucksterism (of which I'm SURE there is some). But more broadly speaking, it's my view that a good portion of manufacturers who many here think are selling overpriced crap, likely really believe in their products.




To be picky, that doesn't follow. It doesn't require the person choosing knows right from wrong; it just requires someone else to know this and make that judgement. That's why we can adults can know certain actions by, say, toddlers/young children are wrong or anti-social, before they understand the moral import of what they are doing.

Again, just contemplate the utterly astounding variety of false beliefs people hold in this world. They really don't know they are mistaken. (I feel particularly mindful of this as I've long had in interest in people with fringe beliefs. I was just listening to a podcast episode of Oh No Ross and Carrie,who investigate all manner of fringe belief systems, even joining cults themselves, and the stories of what people earnestly, mistakenly believe that pour out of those investigations is continually astonishing).
I once had the same give the benefit of doubt idea. I still think some believe what they are doing. I think most know the difference and are just raking in the dough which is there for the taking. Too many instances of bad products, and stuff gussied up with cheap internals for a big mark-up.

If you've seen the movie "Margin Call", the top guy at the fictional investment firm has decided to sell all their mortgage backed securities. This being a dramatization of the 2008 collapse. One of the other top guys doesn't like it and says, "But you'll be selling something you know has no value". The top dog vociferously objects and corrects him, "We'll be selling to willing buyers at the current fair market price. No different than what we've been doing". Of course this is after describing their holdings earlier in the meeting as, "the biggest bag of odorous excrement in the history of capitalism." I think this attitude describes lots of these people.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
39,953
Likes
185,290
Location
Seattle Area
I listened to the Darko podcast. Gosh, what wrong characterization of what we do by Karman. I sent them a message saying I am happy to get on their show to properly explain the science and engineering of what we do. Hopefully they respond and accept. Failing that I can do my own video to counter.
 

Jim Taylor

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 22, 2020
Messages
1,571
Likes
3,396
As I've argued before, I still think a majority of manufacturers believe in what they are doing.

I suppose I'm a cantankerous, contrary curmudgeon and a bilious, ill-tempered old fart, but I disagree.

Somewhere back in the mists of time, I heard this anecdote. It more or less explains my attitude towards high-end audio.

Two people were discussing their militant neighbors. The first was pessimistic regarding a forthcoming war, the other optimistic. The optimist said, "Quit being so negative! You always judge things in such a negative light! You're most probably wrong!" The pessimist replied, "I'd rather be a pessimist and be proven wrong than an optimist and be proven wrong!"

As for astounding numbers of people with fringe beliefs, I must confess that I know quite a few people whose actions belie their words. Wasn't it attributed to Twain? ..... "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

Please don't take this to mean that I'm trying to get you to change your beliefs. I'm not. You have a right to them. I simply don't believe them the way you do.

Jim
 

Andysu

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 7, 2019
Messages
1,412
Likes
688
The truth is simple: they both made a mistake going after each other. Danny making enemies of all youtube reviewers was bad for business as it created the potential of them getting his speakers and saying they are awful. Jay's response video was full of anger and resentment which would work if Danny was a nobody. But he has a 50K subscriber army which he could ill afford making an enemy out of.

The rest of the story now is how they erase the past mistakes and hold hands in the future. To wit, Danny said so in his last video that "jay is a good reviewer because now he can hear differences in cables!" And now have this video in return of how Danny's cables are better than generic and how he loves the sound of his speaker.
i think most that listen to cables with no test gear , i can't take them serious or their word .
i have cheap amazon grade cable for my JBL cinema speakers i mean cheap . not thick rather thin and it seems to work . okay if i got some thicker cable the test i would do .

1. compare the thin and thicker cable with multi meter ohm impedance testing of resistance with direct connection to THX monitor to pc computer
2. play a sine wave tone and see if the microphone to RTA shows any level difference as well as frequency sweeps and overlays and direct testings as well
3. play the star wars "return of the jedi" laserdisc rancor scene to see if there is an significant difference between thin cable and thicker cable


when do i do the test ? i have to get some cheap amazon grade thicker cable . i most certainly will not buy any of that audiobsphile cable , no way , absolutely not .
 
Top Bottom