Analysis paralysis

[DeruDog]

First of all I did not know where to hang this, so this is my first shot. I will move this discussion elsewhere if that is better.



I am occupying a new apartment and really don’t know where to start with audio: I have a blank slate. The Livingroom is fairly small, at about 12x12 with 8’ ceiling and open to a kitchen that is also about 12x12 (on the left side of the listening area). Needless to say the room is untreated; it will probably remain so, since with such a compressed area, the WAF gets amplified. I might be able to put a sound absorber on the back wall with a print, but likely that’s it.

Input will be Apple TV via HDMI, and computer via HDMI or whatever else. The TV has 3 HDMI in and RCA out. No ARC or eARC.

Considerations abound: I am thinking about active and passive systems based off of Amir and Erin reviews and measurements. Right now, the conundrums are many:

1/ Active pair like Genelec or Kef with or without subwoofer – budget is about $2000. Would have to work with RCA out on TV, since I have an old TV without ARC or eARC. Hoping it will die soon.

2/ Passive pair on a Bluesound amplifier, or other amplifier. Don’t particularly want wires running around the room. Simpler is better, which is why I am leaning active.

3/ Soundbar and surround sound?? Sonos, God forbid?? Seriously, though, Sonos and Bluesound seem like options. Surround is not imperative but would be nice. Also, with all of the Atmos content coming out on Amazon, Apple Music, etc, as well as Tidal should I be looking at Atmos imaging?

Usage: I will be using the system for TV, some games, and music of course. Probably be listening passively while cooking and more actively for parts of the day. Honestly, I watch movies about as many hours as I “actively” listen to music.

Right now, one day I lean toward Genelec (3s) and a beautiful front stage; then another day I want to hit the “easy button” and pick up a sound bar like sonos or bluesound or Denon and just be done with it.

 

[dominikz]

Personally I'd probably look at an AVR like the Denon AVR-X3800H, 2x Revel M16 or Kef LS50 Meta and a sub like SVS 1000-series, Monoprice Monolith series or XTZ.

That way you'd have streaming, room EQ (which I see as mandatory), proper bass management, various connectivity options and an easy way to upgrade to multichannel later on.

Strangely but there's not a lot of stereo options that will give you all that functionality, and definitely not for less money. :/

 

[Ron Texas]

In an apartment skip the sub unless the building is made out of concrete.

 

[pablolie]

I'd consider KEF LS50 wireless? Genelec may not get wife approval (heck, even I can't look at them for long, as amazing as they measure), plus $2k doesn't buy a lot in that territory. KEF LS50W wrap all your points up in one single solution. And are universally acclaimed.

 

[DeruDog]

I'd consider KEF LS50 wireless? Genelec may not get wife approval (heck, even I can't look at them for long, as amazing as they measure), plus $2k doesn't but a lot in that territory. KEF LS50W wrap all your points up in one single solution. And are universally acclaimed.

I have the same thoughts on the Genelec look, especially compared to KEF. Also, separates get expensive and active speakers in general make a more clean look. Another debate of mine is whether to do the LSX with room correction or the LS50. LS50 might be overkill for that little room.

 

[DeruDog]

Personally I'd probably look at an AVR like the Denon AVR-X3800H, 2x Revel M16 or Kef LS50 Meta and a sub like SVS 1000-series, Monoprice Monolith series or XTZ.

That way you'd have streaming, room EQ (which I see as mandatory), proper bass management, various connectivity options and an easy way to upgrade to multichannel later on.

Strangely but there's not a lot of stereo options that will give you all that functionality, and definitely not for less money. :/

I am feeling the same way about room correction. I have not set up a room like this, but assume it will make a big difference. Considering the Mini-DSP with actives or some passive solution ... and I have used Denon quite a lot and really like it. If there was a reciever without the amps but with the room correction, and in a smaller profile that would be ideal, but have not found such a thing to exist. I just think actives seem to be the way to go and make surround easier from a cable-management (hiding) perspective.

 

[CapMan]

Personally I'd probably look at an AVR like the Denon AVR-X3800H, 2x Revel M16 or Kef LS50 Meta and a sub like SVS 1000-series, Monoprice Monolith series or XTZ.

This is great advice - I have downsized to a Denon 4800, used with Harbeth P3s and SVS3000 Micro subs. Versus a much more expensive streamer amp I can't subjectively hear a difference - the presentation and sound signature reflect the speakers and room , nothing more.

I would not be without DSP and the ability to measure / tune to the room, especially at low frequencies. You get this out of the box with a 3800/4800.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[dominikz]

I am feeling the same way about room correction. I have not set up a room like this, but assume it will make a big difference. Considering the Mini-DSP with actives or some passive solution ... and I have used Denon quite a lot and really like it. If there was a reciever without the amps but with the room correction, and in a smaller profile that would be ideal, but have not found such a thing to exist.

Sure, I can understand the reluctance to have a pretty large box where only a couple (of the many available) amps are in use.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of stereo all-in one options.
E.g. miniDSP SHD Power seems great, but has less functionality than an AVR, doesn't come with an easy way to upgrade to multichannel later and even costs more.
miniDSP Flex + an external amp is similar, but without the convenience and ease of use of an all-in-one solution.
There is also the Sonos Amp which looks almost perfect, but sadly doesn't come with room EQ for 3rd party loudspeaker (i.e. you can only use Trueplay if you use Sonos Architectural speakers).
ELAC EA101EQ-G integrated amplifier comes with some proprietary room correction, but it seems to me it is discontinued. Also, it doesn't come with HDMI input so may not be ideal for connection with TVs.
EDIT: Martin Logan Forte and Paradigm PW Amp might be interesting to check (they come with streaming capabilities, Sub out and ARC room correction). Unfortunately no HDMI (e)ARC or display.

Sadly, manufacturers of stereo HiFi equipment don't seem to share my vision of mandatory features in stereo audio electronics

I just think actives seem to be the way to go and make surround easier from a cable-management (hiding) perspective.

That may depend on your room layout and wiring, though. With actives you need a nearby power outlet for every speaker to route the power cable towards, plus a signal cable (unless using one of the wireless solutions - which may tie you into a specific vendor product eco-system). Passive speakers require just the one cable connected towards the amp(s). I guess I can see benefits of both, depending on the environment.

 

[bodhi]

Personally I'd probably look at an AVR like the Denon AVR-X3800H, 2x Revel M16 or Kef LS50 Meta and a sub like SVS 1000-series, Monoprice Monolith series or XTZ.

That way you'd have streaming, room EQ (which I see as mandatory), proper bass management, various connectivity options and an easy way to upgrade to multichannel later on.

Strangely but there's not a lot of stereo options that will give you all that functionality, and definitely not for less money. :/

I'd go with this suggestion. It's easy, cheap(ish) and very performant setup. In the future you can just upgrade the speakers and sub if needed.

Going with the Genelecs for example is immediately a lot more expensive and complicated with questionable benefits. I think those come after you have really been bitten by the hifi bug and have money to spare for just trying new things.

And are there any objective reasons to go for stereo amplifier in 2023? I don't think so.

 

[dominikz]

And are there any objective reasons to go for stereo amplifier in 2023?

Perhaps it helps to resist the urge to buy the remaining loudspeakers to setup a full Atmos system?

 

[JeremyFife]

Real world compromises keeps things interesting

I know I'd have an easier time getting acceptance for something like this if it looked "nice" which, for me leans strongly to that KEF LSX option (LSX rather than LS50 for a wireless approach). It's not purist, but it would sound and look pretty great.

I'd go further though and ask yourself if you are going to do any critical listening to music. If not, then you may well find that a SONOS implementation would work well, really well. Ease of use, measures surprisingly well - sounds good, looks good. Fit and forget, and enjoy.

Your call, and your priorities

 

[TheBatsEar]

First of all I did not know where to hang this, so this is my first shot. I will move this discussion elsewhere if that is better.



I am occupying a new apartment and really don’t know where to start with audio: I have a blank slate. The Livingroom is fairly small, at about 12x12 with 8’ ceiling and open to a kitchen that is also about 12x12 (on the left side of the listening area). Needless to say the room is untreated; it will probably remain so, since with such a compressed area, the WAF gets amplified. I might be able to put a sound absorber on the back wall with a print, but likely that’s it.

Input will be Apple TV via HDMI, and computer via HDMI or whatever else. The TV has 3 HDMI in and RCA out. No ARC or eARC.

Considerations abound: I am thinking about active and passive systems based off of Amir and Erin reviews and measurements. Right now, the conundrums are many:

1/ Active pair like Genelec or Kef with or without subwoofer – budget is about $2000. Would have to work with RCA out on TV, since I have an old TV without ARC or eARC. Hoping it will die soon.

2/ Passive pair on a Bluesound amplifier, or other amplifier. Don’t particularly want wires running around the room. Simpler is better, which is why I am leaning active.

3/ Soundbar and surround sound?? Sonos, God forbid?? Seriously, though, Sonos and Bluesound seem like options. Surround is not imperative but would be nice. Also, with all of the Atmos content coming out on Amazon, Apple Music, etc, as well as Tidal should I be looking at Atmos imaging?

Usage: I will be using the system for TV, some games, and music of course. Probably be listening passively while cooking and more actively for parts of the day. Honestly, I watch movies about as many hours as I “actively” listen to music.

Right now, one day I lean toward Genelec (3s) and a beautiful front stage; then another day I want to hit the “easy button” and pick up a sound bar like sonos or bluesound or Denon and just be done with it.

If i had your situation, i would get a MiniDSP Flex RCA and connect the TV using optical or RCA. This then acts as a capable and easy to use preamp, you can connect all kinds of devices to it, for example your wifes mobile bluetooth for her tunes. The box is small and nice, it has a good display and well sized volume knob, as well as a remote. You can also connect a subwoofer or use it's DSP functionality later.
I would then add a poweramp, something like a Fosi V3 with a 48v power supply, it can be hidden behind the TV or somewhere else.
Lastly you need speakers. I would either go with a pair of KEF LS50 (they are bass shy, but you can add a subwoofer later, very high WAF and small) or KEF R3 (used for maybe $800, medium WAF).
This should land you somewhere at $1200 to $1500.

 

[Beershaun]

The only thing I'd add to what others have said is pick a solution that gives you and your partner the better convenience. You both will get more value out of it if it's one touch simple to stream music from your phone or to just turn on the TV and have the stereo play with one remote and one button.

 

[DVDdoug]

Surround is not imperative but would be nice.

IMO - Surround adds a LOT to the listening experience. And I agree, in an apartment you can't get the "movie theater" subwoofer experience without annoying your neighbors so the surround might somewhat make-up for that.

With stereo music, I like to use a "hall" or "theater" surround effect on my AVR, but that's heresy "hi-fi purists", altering the sound like that.

 

[CapMan]

If space is tight the Marantz slimline AVRs are ok too.

 

[pablolie]

Is this about listening to music, or about movie FX?

If it is the former, imho not much can beat the LS50W, maybe throw in a single sub.

Then again I have never had any remote interest in surround. Was always thoroughly underwhelmed with the experience.

 

[Multicore]

Input will be Apple TV via HDMI, and computer via HDMI or whatever else. The TV has 3 HDMI in and RCA out. No ARC or eARC.

This is quite a fun problem to have. If you decide not to add an AVR or something like that for HDMI switching and audio extraction, and I don't blame you, I hate those ugly things, then you have many fun options to consider including used, vintage, contemporary, hifi, modern retro or analog pro.

For example, one of those Yamaha integrated amps with front panel tone and loudness controls plus the best KEF you can afford from the remaining money.

 

[dominikz]

Is this about listening to music, or about movie FX?

If it is the former, imho not much can beat the LS50W, maybe throw in a single sub.

Then again I have never had any remote interest in surround. Was always thoroughly underwhelmed with the experience.

There's no room EQ in LS50W, right?
Personally I probably wouldn't invest that much in an all-in-one that doesn't have room EQ. Too bad they didn't include it - even a few PEQ bands would be enough!

 

[pablolie]

There's no room EQ in LS50W, right?
Personally I probably wouldn't invest that much in an all-in-one that doesn't have room EQ. Too bad they didn't include it - even a few PEQ bands would be enough!

Nor does any Genelec. Room correction didnt seem to be part of the OP requirements. The extra for room correction would be the same for Genelec or LS50W, but cost wise the LS50W would likely score better with not much of a performance penalty.

I am all for room correction, but it is not for everybody as it is quite error prone for the non propeller head crowd...

 

[dominikz]

Nor does any Genelec. Room correction didnt seem to be part of the OP requirements. The extra for room correction would be the same for Genelec or LS50W, but cost wise the LS50W would likely score better with not much of a performance penalty.

I am all for room correction, but it is not for everybody as it is quite error prone for the non propeller head crowd...

Genelec SAM series monitors actually support room EQ (configured via an optional kit called GLM). People say it's even quite user friendly (I never tested it, though!).
But I fully agree, up to the OP to see what fits best!