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AMP upgrade guidance

D

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I was more spitting on the idea of the guy having to replace his entire system than anything else. He specifically asked about swapping the amp, not anything else, so if you are telling him to keep the amp and toss the rest, you are coming at it backwards.
.... Get the right amp for the speaker, not the speaker for the amp.
In normal situations you'd be right about that. Not in this case though.

They are hopelessly inefficient with very rough frequency response. Yeah, you can EQ the schiit out of them and what do you get? -If you don't want to boost too much you will end up with an even less efficient speaker when you're done. Then what? -More power?
You can polish a turd. It'll still smell.

I'm with Zolalll on this one. -Swap the speakers!
 

ZolaIII

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I was more spitting on the idea of the guy having to replace his entire system than anything else. He specifically asked about swapping the amp, not anything else, so if you are telling him to keep the amp and toss the rest, you are coming at it backwards.

Regarding your other comments:

I'm going off of Matias's chart. Draw a line through the middle of that FR and you get deviations of +/- 2.5db. That's not bad. It's going to be worse than that in-room, but full range Dirac can smooth all that out pretty easily, which is an easy fix if it's bugging him (thanks to this thread). $200 is a pretty small price to pay compared to having to buy an entire new set of speakers. Also, speaking practically again: he likes his speakers.

Apollon is 400w at 8ohms and 600w at 4ohms. That's +6db headroom compared to his current amp which is 90w/150w. And as far as outliving the Apollon multiple times, sorry, I call bullshit on that. If you really want to argue that point, you'll really need to say that Yamaha will outlive FOUR Apollons in a row, because that's the price difference. I'm not bashing Yamaha (I used to have one, and liked it), but if someone comes in and says their amp is underpowered for their insensitive speakers, that is not the amp I'd be pointing them at. Get the right amp for the speaker, not the speaker for the amp.
Hah hah Apollon may be declared 400W, measured is 245W (take a look previously or thread) Yamahas are declared 100 W but they give about 140 now do the math. Nothing to argue about more heat lesser the lifespan of caps. 75% of malfunctions is associated to power AC/DC conversion input stage on modern devices or no caps nothing to fail. Iron core or toroidal transformer will get worn out and eventually fail but we are talking about 30+ year's in case of quality one's. Now Yamaha A-S 700 costs 40% of Apollon if you are able to find one. Drow the line trough the middle on normal measurements not one done imprecise with a thick marker and tell me what's the ± dB difference. It's +200 on 600~700 $/€ device and no Dirac is not a magic wand, REW room simulator and optimal placement is imperative so that you have as less as possible nulls to begin with and Dirac can't do that.
 
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ZolaIII

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I’m fully aware the difference is 1db,but The purifi is without a doubt a much cleaner amp throughout the frequency range,maybe something with load dependency is going on?
my hearing has been tested to be running out at 14khz due to a life of struggle in the cesspit of capitalism.
Maybe you have heard the ATCs and don’t like them? Maybe you haven’t,if so if you’re ever passing the Wirral your welcome to have a listen,can even swap the amps for you,As I’ve previously said I’ve rarely found much difference in amps before,bar one home brewed chip amp once which was nearly brilliant,not noticed any difference in dacs,cd players,even my cheap Sony Blu-ray player sounded exactly the same as a oppo 203,so I’m not really much of a subject for SSD,well not since 1998 anyway.
Might be load dependance of your old amp, it's not the power and you answered yourself why you like this bright speakers and that's perfectly fine. I don't have anything against them as a firm but that are not properly done crossovers and they chose pretty inefficient drivers on the good side they are good regarding min impedance and impedance/phase so won't butcher either them self or amplifier and will last for very, very long. I even believe that good part of brightness can be corrected with DSP in this case. Would have I bought them? Certainly not not even with KW power amplifier gratis.
 

Matias

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Bit OT: How the heck did you gather that great set of SINAD data?:)
Many days of work initially, not in a row, but through several weeks a little a day. And nowadays only a few new enter every month. Although it is up to date, the results don't change much, so it is somewhat static lately.

Anyway, my work is newbie level compared to @pierre and his www.spinorama.org. Now THAT is impressive! o_O
 

earik

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Ok, 84db sensitivity is on the low end, but that's at 1w, and still higher than my normal listening volume. The way you guys are talking, this is is so low that he needs to throw the speakers out and start over?? How loud are you all listening to your music, anyway? You're at 100db with only 30w with these.

Hah hah Apollon may be declared 400W, measured is 245W (take a look previously or thread) Yamahas are declared 100 W but they give about 140 now do the math. Nothing to argue about more heat lesser the lifespan of caps. 75% of malfunctions is associated to power AC/DC conversion input stage on modern devices or no caps nothing to fail. Iron core or toroidal transformer will get worn out and eventually fail but we are talking about 30+ year's in case of quality one's. Now Yamaha A-S 700 costs 40% of Apollon if you are able to find one. Drow the line trough the middle on normal measurements not one done imprecise with a thick marker and tell me what's the ± dB difference. It's +200 on 600~700 $/€ device and no Dirac is not a magic wand, REW room simulator and optimal placement is imperative so that you have as less as possible nulls to begin with and Dirac can't do that.

Amir measured it at low gain. With this guy's setup, he's going to use high gain. That gets you to 400W at 8ohms, which is +6db compared to the Yamaha. It's clear that you love your Yamahas (good for you), but you have to be realistic. They just can't produce the power of modern class D amps.

I did draw a line through the middle of the chart in post #9 of this thread, and I got about +/- 2.5db. For a passive crossover, that's hardly "criminal".
 
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ZolaIII

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@earik 82 at 1 KHz as much as I could see and others reported even less. This are not near field monitor's so you will loose 5~9 dB average to mid - far feald. You do the white noise calibration to 83 dB mono at listening spot and count in +20 dB peak (realistically less and to the DR of materials but there are and crazy movie mixes that are not adopted to home use with DR of 22~24). Show me the graph that it doesn't clip hard and give 400W and on the long run and you have my apology.
You didn't even took a look at proper measurements as there is dB 0 at the middle there and next plots are ± 5 dB and I told all together difference in dB (for reference +6 dB is perceived as 50% louder).
 

earik

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I guess it depends how loud the OP listens, and how far away he's sitting. For me, I've got a pretty small house, so this would be sensitive enough for my needs given my listening style, including movie headroom. But for someone else, maybe not, and in that case you've got a point about the sensitivity. It's definitely not a speaker to be used if you need to hit 120db peaks, that's very true. But they're not my speakers, so the sensitivity question is sort of moot without the OP's opinion on it. Aside from just trying to help the guy find a more powerful amp, I don't really have a horse in this race. :)
 

ZolaIII

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@earik that's how you do calibration, then you dial it down to your liking and use equal loudness compensation or compensate to it on desired level and really no need to go over 86~88 dB SPL program stereo as max. But if system can't pass calibration let's just say I am not happy and did something badly.
 

Bob from Florida

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what do you mean by a good speaker? I might be wrong but for me the ATC mid is probably the best I ever heard. I had elac 247 before and I find ATC a class above. but this is taste and personal preference. for the reference I am planning to upgrade the DAC as well. but first things first.
Do yourself a favor and take the advice given with a "bucket-full of salt". Especially advice that sounds so "certain". Independently verify everything and most importantly "think for yourself". Good luck!
 

radix

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We don't really know how big the room is or what the listening distance is or how loud to go. We only know that the OP went from 87 dB speakers @ 6R to 85 dB (maybe as low as 81 dB) speakers @ 8R. I could see how a 100 wpc amp would no longer drive those well. Based on the ATC measurements, it will take up to about 100 wpc - 250 wpc, depending if you believe the German measurements or the ATC specs. So I don't think throwing a 400 wpc amp at those speakers will solve the problem.

Anyway, I still think the OP needs to figure out his listening distance and approximate max volume, then figure out what system will get him there.

That Yamaha is a nice amp and with 89 dB sensitivity speakers would likely be excellent out to 3-4m.

Without knowing distance and SPL, one cannot say if the ATC could work.
 
D

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Ok, 84db sensitivity is on the low end, but that's at 1w, and still higher than my normal listening volume. The way you guys are talking, this is is so low that he needs to throw the speakers out and start over?? How loud are you all listening to your music, anyway? You're at 100db with only 30w with these.

From the "How much power du you need" link in my signature-->

Amp sizing for this example.​

On the technical sheet of an amp, it is the average power (of ten marked Wrms) with sinusoidal signal which is indicated. It is given for one or more impedances: often in 8, 6 or 4 ohms. We must work with this information to deduce the rest.

We could naively say that for a requirement of 2.8W, we will take some margin and choose an amp given for 5W in 8ohms. Almost double, it should be fine!
But an amp given for 5W in 8ohms means that it is 5W for a sinusoidal signal. This means that it can deliver an effective voltage of 6.3Vrms on sinusoid. So peaks of 9V.
This amp will not be able to correctly pass a musical signal with CF of 6 or more at 2.8Wrms average because the peaks of this signal exceed 9V.

To be able to reproduce a musical signal without clipping with CF=15 at an average power of 2.8W, you must be able to pass peaks at 27V.
On a sinusoid, a peak at 27V corresponds to an effective value of 19V.
So you need an amp with a power announced by the manufacturer of 45W into 8 ohm.

Um... a 45W amp when the average power to reproduce is only 2.8W?
yes because the power announced by the manufacturers is on a sinusoidal signal (normally measured at 1kHz) and the music is far from being a sinusoid!
 

ZolaIII

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We don't really know how big the room is or what the listening distance is or how loud to go. We only know that the OP went from 87 dB speakers @ 6R to 85 dB (maybe as low as 81 dB) speakers @ 8R. I could see how a 100 wpc amp would no longer drive those well. Based on the ATC measurements, it will take up to about 100 wpc - 250 wpc, depending if you believe the German measurements or the ATC specs. So I don't think throwing a 400 wpc amp at those speakers will solve the problem.

Anyway, I still think the OP needs to figure out his listening distance and approximate max volume, then figure out what system will get him there.

That Yamaha is a nice amp and with 89 dB sensitivity speakers would likely be excellent out to 3-4m.

Without knowing distance and SPL, one cannot say if the ATC could work.
The Elac he had were very deacent, a tad bright at the top but overall warm and a bit hard to handle (large back port) but overall good.
We all did one mistake and that is don't trust anyone especially not your self. Buy UMIK-1 microphone and measure what you are getting, play with REW room simulator and determine optimal placement verified with measurement of course.
 
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nikkon

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We don't really know how big the room is or what the listening distance is or how loud to go. We only know that the OP went from 87 dB speakers @ 6R to 85 dB (maybe as low as 81 dB) speakers @ 8R. I could see how a 100 wpc amp would no longer drive those well. Based on the ATC measurements, it will take up to about 100 wpc - 250 wpc, depending if you believe the German measurements or the ATC specs. So I don't think throwing a 400 wpc amp at those speakers will solve the problem.

Anyway, I still think the OP needs to figure out his listening distance and approximate max volume, then figure out what system will get him there.

That Yamaha is a nice amp and with 89 dB sensitivity speakers would likely be excellent out to 3-4m.

Without knowing distance and SPL, one cannot say if the ATC could work.
distance from the speakers is 4m and the room ls 45 square meters
 

ZolaIII

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distance from the speakers is 4m and the room ls 45 square meters
You definitely need efficient speaker which won't compress up to 100 dB SPL and depending if you will use sub/sub's and more powerful amp. And again I say Linton's and preferably good sub like SVS 3000.
 

Zapper

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Actually @nikkon, I'd ingore the entire thread and all the "advice", except for post #50.
I get your point, but is it true? It seems like at least one valid point was revealed in the discussion; that the efficiency of the OP's speakers is very low, supported by multiple sources. That helps clarify the problem, and is something the OP may not have known. Given that observation, suggestions for a more powerful amp or more efficient speakers are not unreasonable.
 

ZolaIII

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I get your point, but is it true? It seems like at least one valid point was revealed in the discussion; that the efficiency of the OP's speakers is very low, supported by multiple sources. That helps clarify the problem, and is something the OP may not have known. Given that observation, suggestions for a more powerful amp or more efficient speakers are not unreasonable.
Everything is true but pragmatical doubt leads you to self learning. We reconfirmed speaker measurements and well R2D DAC is true to company name (they do have good cheap headphone amps). On far field he needs both big and efficient speakers and still sub is more than recovered.
 
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radix

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distance from the speakers is 4m and the room ls 45 square meters

Yep, that's a big room and fair distance. I have a 4.5 x 6.5m room (29 sqm) with a listening distance of 5m. The room has wide archways (not doors) to other rooms, so it really behaves like a larger air volume. I use a 380wpc amp (2x Benchmark AHB2) and Revel F228be speakers (90 dB sensitivity). According to the Crown "Amplifier Power Required" calculator I linked previously, for 95 dB SPL at 5m with 90 dB sensitivity speakers and 6 dB headroom, I need 315 wpc. That's within the amplifier specs and within the speaker specs for maximum power. Normally, I listen with the preamp around -35 dB to -45 dB, but when it's party time, it can go up to about -10 dB. The normal listening SPL is likely in the mid-70dB SPL, maybe low 80dB SPL. I'm not sure what the highest SPL level is, I should measure it.

The preamp outputs and the amplifier inputs are reasonably matched for 0dB. The preamp is 6.6 Vrms (XLR) output (at <0.1% THD) and the amp is set to 4 Vrms (< 0.0003 % THD+N). I've never clipped the AHB2.

If I had 85dB speakers, I would need almost 1000 wpc from the amp, and that would likely rip the speakers apart. It would not work.

I also have 2x subs. IIRC, I'm crossed over at 60 or 80 Hz (I used both and cannot remember right now which I left it at), which is a fair bit higher than the lows of the F228be. The subs handle the lows better and are positioned to minimize the room modes (sound cancellations). This also helps with the power handling of the F228be, as it's usually the lows that distort the most and the soonest.

The point of this, is the calculators and the numbers can help you focus in on a speaker and amp pairing that will work for your space.
 
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nikkon

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A lot of reading and many white nights from the begging of this thread
thanks for all your feedback. So far I’m researching class D amps ( purifi and hype and co) and I’m planning to listen SPL Diamond DAC for a possible upgrade. I’m keeping the speakers for now…love them too much
 
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