Advice needed on choice of Amplifier

[Willem]

And please realize that average listening level is not the same as the dynamic peaks. If you listen to repertoire with a high dynamic range such as symphonic music, the peaks may be some 20 dB or more above average. To reproduce them cleanly you will need a lot of power. One way to achieve that is to use active subwoofers.

 

[LeontTP]

Definitely A-S 701 or A-S 801 for phono input, A-S 801 have better DAC and USB DAC input but it's more expensive.
@LeontTP display on R-N803 is not big and you can dim it (it won't be eye popping). When you realise you will actually need it all (eventually even more) what R-N803 has to offer except BT you will understand the proposition.
All of those proposed Yamahas (A-S, R-N range) are rather big with classical look for an integrated amplifier.
What do you already have and plan to continue using from equipment? How big is the room and what tower speakers you intend to run with amplifier?

A big question for me is if I will actually gain real sound benefits from paying more here as well.

I run some budget tower speakers from system fidelity with my Cyrus 2 right now.
Its worked fine but I will eventually buy more expensive speakers but dont know which yet. So Id just like to be a bit future proofed for most units in the 2000$ range. Room is about 4x3 meters but may move rooms eventually as well.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Is the only difference between these units the power output?

And how much power do you think I would need for tower speakers, just to be safe?

No, cd direct path, different power stages, as301 and 501 has the same phono stage though.

 

[LeontTP]

How far away are you sitting from your speakers?

Right now, about 3 meters, but would like to have headroom here too.

 

[Koeitje]

Wouldn't use WXA-50 with it's 50W 8 Ohms to drive tower speakers. If there whose no requirement for very small size I would tell you to try to find Yamaha R-N803/R-N803D if you can.

Tower speakers are usually easier to drive than monitors, unless you get into exotic oversized towers.

 

[raindance]

Yamaha AS-501 or Denon PMA-600NE or 800NE.

 

[LeontTP]

Questions:

• How many analog inputs do you need?
• Do you need a phono input?
• Do you need digital input? More than one digital input?
• Do you want Bluetooth in the amp?
• Do you want streaming capability in the amp?
• How loud do you like to listen to music?

Comments:
Bluetooth and streaming can be easily added to any amp with a low cost streamer like the WiiMs.

How loud you like to listen makes a huge difference in amp power required. It takes approximately 10x the power to produce a perceived doubling of volume. A modest listening level (i.e. you can talk to someone easily without raising your voice or only raising it slightly) only takes a few watts to a few 10's of watts of power. Loud volumes (you have to raise your voice a lot to talk) might take 10's to 100's of watts. Extreme volumes (rock concert in the mosh pit loud) takes 100's to 1000's of watts. Speaker efficiency can also make a large difference. A 3 dB difference in efficiency corresponds to 2x the power. A speaker with 83dB/watt/1meter will take 4x the power as a speaker with 89dB/watt/1meter for the same volume. Lastly, larger rooms and greater distance between speakers and listeners require more power. The sound power initially falls off at a rate of 4x the power (6dB) for every doubling of distance.

For example, I listen at moderate levels and have speakers with 89dB/watt/1meter, average sized rooms, and like to sit about 2m from the speakers. I found no difference between a 36W/channel and a 100W/channel amp, because 36W/channel was enough for my needs. But many people want more power (sometimes a lot more) because they want more volume, have inefficient speakers, or have very large rooms and sit far from the speakers. It is not unusual for ASR members to have many 100's of watts/channel in their systems. Those are the guys who will tell you 50W won't do.

So, a 50W amp like the WXA-50 may be completely adequate or completely inadequate for you.

There was a previous comment about tower speakers requiring more power. That isn't necessarily true. If you compare tower and bookshelf speakers in the same product line from a given company, you may find the towers have more efficiency and higher impedance, making them an easier load to drive.

- At least 1 but 2 or 3 would be ideal.
- No Im happy with my current Phono stage
- Not a need as long as theres a couple analog but it wouldnt hurt.
- It would be a bonus but not required.
- No need for streaming, I use my PC for the little streaming I do
- 80 - 90db from about 3 meters currently

Thanks for the great explanation!

My main concern is futureproofing since Im a novice about this and dont know exactly what speakers I want in the future.
But fitting it all in a 500€ package seems difficult.

 

[LeontTP]

Tower speakers are usually easier to drive than monitors, unless you get into exotic oversized towers.

I dont think Ill ever buy ones over the 2000$ range anyway.

 

[Willem]

If you use a PC for streaming you are probably using the usb output. In that case you need the AS801.

 

[raindance]

If you use a PC for streaming you are probably using the usb output. In that case you need the AS801.

Unless he uses a streaming node of some kind to keep the PC somewhere else in the house.

 

[LeontTP]

If you use a PC for streaming you are probably using the usb output. In that case you need the AS801.

Its fine, I rarely stream so its not a requirement, just a bonus. So far Ive just used the analog in since thats all my old Cyrus 2 has.

 

[Willem]

I don't want to upset you, but digital sources allow higher sound quality. Stream directly from the digital output of a CD/DVD/BD player, TV or a PC/streamer into the digital inputs of the amplifier and you have the best possible quality.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

- At least 1 but 2 or 3 would be ideal.
- No Im happy with my current Phono stage
- Not a need as long as theres a couple analog but it wouldnt hurt.
- It would be a bonus but not required.
- No need for streaming, I use my PC for the little streaming I do
- 80 - 90db from about 3 meters currently

Thanks for the great explanation!

My main concern is futureproofing since Im a novice about this and dont know exactly what speakers I want in the future.
But fitting it all in a 500€ package seems difficult.

Yeah. Futureproofing is hard. Don't underestimate the power needed for dynamics / transients. I would look for a 2nd hand A-S701 because it has the most power and otherwise seems to fit your requirements well enough.

I'm one of those @Zapper mentioned who refuse to run out of headroom and I will advice to always go for the most bang for the buck. Many are the opposite but out of many things I really really don't want to damage my precious speakers due to clipping and it seems easy enough when you realize you just need as much power as fits the budget and otherwise keep the volume down according to what the speakers can take.

I've briefly seen the clipping lights on one of my amps (2x340 w 8 ohm) into, granted, a large slimline tower speaker.

 

[LeontTP]

I don't want to upset you, but digital sources allow higher sound quality. Stream directly from the digital output of a CD/DVD/BD player, TV or a PC/streamer into the digital inputs of the amplifier and you have the best possible quality.

No worries, I assumed so, but I mostly play vinyl anyway.

I do have a standalone DAC so I could always run that inbetween any digital source and the analog in on the amp for higher quality right?

 

[ZolaIII]

For example: I listen at 2.3~2.5 m with mid average efficient speakers (88 dB @ 1 m) and pair of subwoofer so speakers don't do a bottom end in medium size room. All do I don't really use 100 W @8 Ohms that my amplifier provides I still need them so that amplifier stays cool and not driven hard (and far from clipping). I do reference calibration to 83 dB white noise (- 20 dB) at listening position and it does it without much of buzz on unbalanced lines (keap it inaudible on 30 cm). I almost never listen on such levels (86~90 dB program - 103~105 dB bass peak) but leave it calibrated like that and regulate loudness with preamp and with equal loudness (which helps me a lot when I want to listen on much more lower levels and main reason to get Yamaha with Loudness control's in the first place).
Main reason for me to recommend R-N803 or R-N803D is room calibration even arguably it's far from the best among such it still works and makes a lot of difference compared to none. R-N803 & R-N803D were about 800 $/€ and discontinued now all do you can still find new one's. If you can find a second hand one that whosent used much that would be great. It would be very easy to control with an app (including subwoofer menagement) and simple to use (compared to cuple apps, remotes and by hand). It doesn't have USB DAC input but you probably can use SPDIF from PC.
Streamer is a bit slow but not bad.
You are better with pair of good bookshelf speakers and a sub or two then with not bad towers alone for the price when you do buy speakers. It's just how I see it even it's actually a bit biased from my side to keep it simple.

 

[LeontTP]

Yeah. Futureproofing is hard. Don't underestimate the power needed for dynamics / transients. I would look for a 2nd hand A-S701 because it has the most power and otherwise seems to fit your requirements well enough.

I'm one of those @Zapper mentioned who refuse to run out of headroom and I will advice to always go for the most bang for the buck. Many are the opposite but out of many things I really really don't want to damage my precious speakers due to clipping and it seems easy enough when you realize you just need as much power as fits the budget and otherwise keep the volume down according to what the speakers can take.

I've briefly seen the clipping lights on one of my amps (2x340 w 8 ohm) into, granted, a large slimline tower speaker.

I see. A-S701 Mk 1 or 2 (Not sure of the difference yet) might be the best bet so far, even though its a bit big.

Im not in a hurry so Ill consider it if I find one used for 400$ or so.

Im curious if others would say its overkill.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I see. A-S701 Mk 1 or 2 (Not sure of the difference yet) might be the best bet so far, even though its a bit big.

Im not in a hurry so Ill consider it if I find one used for 400$ or so.

Im curious if others would say its overkill.

Seems like specs. and internal build is much like the R-N803.

R-N803 may hold better value for you if you want to play with Yamahas' room correction, YPAO and/or a subwoofer in the future as it has crossover configs and subwoofer output. So actually when focusing on future proofing it would perhaps be the better choice according to your preferences and priority IR to display, lights and such.

My experience with YPAO is that it's not very great. At least it wasn't when I used it on an older AVR. I don't know it in it's current iteration. It is hopefully better today.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Holdt on today range of AVR's YPAO is better (still not great) but it's rather older version and more basic on R-N803 but still lot better than nothing.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

@Holdt on today range of AVR's YPAO is better (still not great) but it's rather older version and more basic on R-N803 but still lot better than nothing.

I figured. It's almost essential to have the option to remove the largest peaks in the lower regions.

 

[LeontTP]

Seems like specs. and internal build is much like the R-N803.

R-N803 may hold better value for you if you want to play with Yamahas' room correction, YPAO and/or a subwoofer in the future as it has crossover configs and subwoofer output. So actually when focusing on future proofing it would perhaps be the better choice according to your preferences and priority IR to display, lights and such.

My experience with YPAO is that it's not very great. At least it wasn't when I used it on an older AVR. I don't know it in it's current iteration. It is hopefully better today.

@Holdt on today range of AVR's YPAO is better (still not great) but it's rather older version and more basic on R-N803 but still lot better than nothing.

I dont know how room correction works or what it does, could you explain.

Id hope to be satisfied without a sub but its not out of the question. It was a plus for the WXA-50.
Real bummed that Amp wasnt powerful enough, it was pretty perfect for me otherwise and there was one for just 200€ used.