AB(x) testing of Power Amplifiers

[SIY]

Marantz (esp. KI signature ones) has it own house sound. Krell has it. Mcintosh has it too.

Marantz sound is by design. Its not neutral. Its characteristics was created on purpose. Good or bad, i am not here to discuss about it.

Krell is again known for its bass and on the cold side (esp. for early ones). Its not neutral as well. Only newer gears are on the neutral side.

So where was any of this demonstrated? Cite?

 

[escksu]

So where was any of this demonstrated? Cite?

Go google yourself... If not, just ignore what i said. I am not here to convince you if they sound different or not. If you think all amps sound the same then so be it.

 

[SIY]

Go google yourself... If not, just ignore what i said. I am not here to convince you if they sound different or not. If you think all amps sound the same then so be it.

So you have absolutely nothing, which is zero surprise.

 

[Mart68]

Krell is again known for its bass and on the cold side (esp. for early ones). Its not neutral as well. Only newer gears are on the neutral side.

This is the problem with subjective opinions, they are all different even about the same product. I have some Krells and I think the early ones sound 'warm'.

So were does that leave us?

Lots of boutique amp designers claim to 'voice' their products, do you think they test this 'voicing' blind?

Of course they don't so they are subject to the same biases as everyone else.

 

[SIY]

This is the problem with subjective opinions, they are all different even about the same product. I have some Krells and I think the early ones sound 'warm'.

So were does that leave us?

Subjective is fine. Uncontrolled is not.

 

[Mart68]

Subjective is fine. Uncontrolled is not.

I'm not making any claim that they really do sound different but I certainly perceive it that way.

I have never tried comparing them under controlled conditions. I already own them so it's not like I have to make a buying decision.

My point was that if you take any piece of equipment and ask 'how does it sound' you'll get different answers from different people, some of which will be completely contradictory.

Hence the futility of totally subjective opinions and reviews.

 

[SIY]

I'm not making any claim that they really do sound different but I certainly perceive it that way.

I have never tried comparing them under controlled conditions. I already own them so it's not like I have to make a buying decision.

My point was that if you take any piece of equipment and ask 'how does it sound' you'll get different answers from different people, some of which will be completely contradictory.

Hence the futility of totally subjective opinions and reviews.

Controls are a different thing. The term “subjective” is horribly abused in fashion audio to mean “uncontrolled,” which it isn’t. One makes subjective judgments under controlled conditions, and that makes subjectivity a useful tool yielding actual useful data. No controls, it’s fairy-spotting time.

 

[escksu]

This is the problem with subjective opinions, they are all different even about the same product. I have some Krells and I think the early ones sound 'warm'.

So were does that leave us?

Lots of boutique amp designers claim to 'voice' their products, do you think they test this 'voicing' blind?

Of course they don't so they are subject to the same biases as everyone else.

Well, many folks here (just 100+ of them actually) believes that everything sounds the same which i dont agree with. Thats life, everyone has different beliefs, no point arguing over it.

Of course, there are numerous factors as well. Amplifier is just one of the gears in the setup. Your speaker would have the most significant impact. At the very least, they have yet to tell me all speakers sound the same...

 

[mdsimon2]

Well, many folks here (just 100+ of them actually) believes that everything sounds the same which i dont agree with. Thats life, everyone has different beliefs, no point arguing over it.

Of course, there are numerous factors as well. Amplifier is just one of the gears in the setup. Your speaker would have the most significant impact. At the very least, they have yet to tell me all speakers sound the same...

Clearly all amplifiers do not sound the same, that is trivial to prove. However I am curious what characteristic you think gives an amplifier a “cold” sound. Frequency response? Distortion? Something else?

Michael

 

[Momotaro]

Controls are a different thing. The term “subjective” is horribly abused in fashion audio to mean “uncontrolled,” which it isn’t. One makes subjective judgments under controlled conditions, and that makes subjectivity a useful tool yielding actual useful data. No controls, it’s fairy-spotting time.

Makes you* wonder how anyone ever mixes music without A/B/X on every change. Art vs Science. It keeps this forum going.

*in general, maybe not you, certainly not me

 

[SIY]

Makes you* wonder how anyone ever mixes music without A/B/X on every change. Art vs Science. It keeps this forum going.

*in general, maybe not you, certainly not me

One is a totally different matter than the other. But every recording engineer I know has the "turned off slider" story, so there IS a bit of overlap.

 

[Momotaro]

One is a totally different matter than the other. But every recording engineer I know has the "turned off slider" story, so there IS a bit of overlap.

Turned off the slider? Never* happened to me.

*may be a lie

 

[escksu]

Clearly all amplifiers do not sound the same, that is trivial to prove. However I am curious what characteristic you think gives an amplifier a “cold” sound. Frequency response? Distortion? Something else?

Michael

OK, you could try proving it to those who believe otherwise. I won't try to do that.

 

[Mart68]

Well, many folks here (just 100+ of them actually) believes that everything sounds the same which i dont agree with. Thats life, everyone has different beliefs, no point arguing over it.

Of course, there are numerous factors as well. Amplifier is just one of the gears in the setup. Your speaker would have the most significant impact. At the very least, they have yet to tell me all speakers sound the same...

I agree with you that amplifiers can sound different.

I just don't agree that early Krells sound cold since my experience is the exact opposite. Even if it is all in my head. Which it may well be

 

[ZolaIII]

Usually when people complain how they new amplifier sounds a bit lifeless and flat I tell them to add a little bit of distortion (true input stage/tone controls). I don't blame them, they auditory system is adopted to such and for them that's how it should be. Then I play them something with a rough male vocal which is hard to menage (like Louis Armstrong) to show them how new one with better SINAD sounds better there. They usually change their initial opinion after realising that it's better that they have it "transparent" and add the colouring elsewhere and when they want.

 

[SIY]

Usually when people complain how they new amplifier sounds a bit lifeless and flat I tell them to add a little bit of distortion (true input stage/tone controls). I don't blame them, they auditory system is adopted to such and for them that's how it should be. Then I play them something with a rough male vocal which is hard to menage (like Louis Armstrong) to show them how new one with better SINAD sounds better there. They usually change their initial opinion after realising that it's better that they have it "transparent" and add the colouring elsewhere and when they want.

Coaching?

 

[ZolaIII]

Coaching?

No that would be a harsh word, I just show them the difference rest as always is upon them self (subject). There are masters that are done on old noisy gear with correction for that gear (for instance because its made on such and then there whosent other gear to start with or simply purposely) which will not translate good on anything else and that's because correction for it will sound best on similar gear (Frank Sinatra, Jimmy Hendrix...). Things are usually more complicated than we are initially willing to admit.
Best regards.

 

[SIY]

No that would be a harsh word, I just show them the difference rest as always is upon them self (subject). There are masters that are done on old noisy gear with correction for that gear (for instance because its made on such and then there whosent other gear to start with or simply purposely) which will not translate good on anything else and those because correction for it will sound best on similar gear (Frank Sinatra, Jimmy Hendrix...). Things are usually more complicated than we are initially willing to admit.
Best regards.

No trying to be harsh, but terse.

Seriously, this is the same sort (if different aim) of coaching one gets from hi fi dealers and faith-based audiophile demos. It's usually not intentional in the latter case, nor in yours, but it nonetheless is what is happening. It could very well be that the "subject" doesn't actually hear any differences when levels are matched.

This is why double blind is crucial for evaluation.

 

[ZolaIII]

@SIY difference is I don't approach them nor claim that they can or can not hear something and of course I ain't selling anything.
Duble blind, duble subjectiv is not enough on it's own. Just before it the human auditory check should be performed and even that doesn't exclude psyho acoustic or prior listening habits or preferences. But I hope it could help us establish the links between individual preference and hearing state.

 

[mdsimon2]

OK, you could try proving it to those who believe otherwise. I won't try to do that.

Thanks for not answering my question.

Michael