unpluggged
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ADAM T series are DSP-based
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A7V deception... help me to change
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OP
PoorAlchemist
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ADAM T series are DSP-based
For my defense. Ok I'm a dumbass but the question remains the same
unpluggged
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Which question exactly? All I can see in your posts is trolling and ranting, starting with the slander in this thread's title. Other members made great efforts to help you and explain why your concerns are not very well substantiated, but you seem to insist on your prejudiced attitude and misconceptions, as if trying to expose some conspiracy.
You are not the first one here who says that DSP and AD-DA conversion are somehow inferior, and these claims have been long proven wrong. Remember, nobody owes you anything here. If you want to avoid DSP and use purely analog monitors, there are still plenty of great options like Neumann KH 120, KH 310, KH 420, the Genelec 8000 series, PSI models, and so on. You are welcome to try them and choose what suits you best. And good luck with calibrating them to your room.
What I think is that most likely you don't have them on the exact same spot, so bass boost from room gain is different and resulting in different extension, or that the HS8 have a more V shaped curve so when you set volume based on the vocal range in the mids you apparently have more bass in the HS8 which was the result of poorer neutrality.Thanks for the links and the curves ! I've download rew, I can't find where are the curve data on WebPlot... i feel dumb on this
I previously post the A7X curve because I didn't knew where to find the data for the A7V. THat's the reason why I was wrong and thought there was a low-cut comparing to the HS8. But I'm impressed by the curve you posted, the A7V have nothing to do with the A7X, realy close to the HS8. So I realy have to try to calibrate them as soon as possible. Can I try with a good microphone? Even if it's not the perfect sound id reference microphone, in the meantime.
I didn't delete my post, I must have been editing, adding this :
That's why I wonder if I shouldn't buy analog speakers, so as not to suffer from tech-fashion of the moment who will evolve ( making the material loose is value ). Doesn't it make sense to use a DST directly on the computer? Like on this video where he set the analogique T8V
and T8V is DSP based also, the internal crossover is DSP, just as the entry level offering they don't let you do the DSP setting yourself
OP
PoorAlchemist
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I appear like trolling a lil bit, maybe to generate a debate. Sorry for the form. Thank you for the time you pass answering. Maybe i'm afraid about taking wrong decision by following the youtube and magasine recommandations, that are ruled by an important marketing influence. I have no landmarks. So i'm here to confront the rude question i'm asking to my self, testing arguments without detour. Sorry if i'm to much familiar.
The question was, don't you think that integrated dsp could cause come lost of quality, higher price, and possible devaluation of the product? Your answer is no. Maybe someone can bring an opposing argument. I also want to know if I can use sound Id DSP directly on my computer with the same advantages?
I have a reponse from amdam audio, about the relevance of using "a4v+ sub8" instead of "a7v". I post it here maybe it could help someone, or confirm the thinking of others :
« Did you try to solve the lack of low end by adjusting the frequency response of the monitors with our A-Control software or by trying the UNR voicing? The DSP is a pretty powerful tool to customize the sound of your monitors.
Switching to the A4V's with a Sub8 will give you a more powerful low end while the high end resolution remains the same. However, the A4V's are voiced a bit different then the A7V's to compensate their small size. This results in a less defined mid range, you will hear more details in this frequency area with the A7V.
As long as high listening levels are not too important for you, the Sub8 would also work as an extension with the A7V's.
»
The question was, don't you think that integrated dsp could cause come lost of quality, higher price, and possible devaluation of the product? Your answer is no. Maybe someone can bring an opposing argument. I also want to know if I can use sound Id DSP directly on my computer with the same advantages?
I have a reponse from amdam audio, about the relevance of using "a4v+ sub8" instead of "a7v". I post it here maybe it could help someone, or confirm the thinking of others :
« Did you try to solve the lack of low end by adjusting the frequency response of the monitors with our A-Control software or by trying the UNR voicing? The DSP is a pretty powerful tool to customize the sound of your monitors.
Switching to the A4V's with a Sub8 will give you a more powerful low end while the high end resolution remains the same. However, the A4V's are voiced a bit different then the A7V's to compensate their small size. This results in a less defined mid range, you will hear more details in this frequency area with the A7V.
As long as high listening levels are not too important for you, the Sub8 would also work as an extension with the A7V's.
»
At least for me you seems like you don't understand the technical part in the first place, everyone goes through this at some point, especially auido is known to be full of snake oil, plus from the language you are reading in the Adam page I guess English isn't your native language so perfectly understand the wording weirdness.
that aside for your questions, my noob ans:
DSP usually don't come with any signal degradation compared to analogue solutions, the analogue parts arn't that perfectly matched to begin with and chips usually have much better consistancy to begin with, so even assuming the S/N ratio will be inferior, the end up frequency response would be better. Also using DSP as crossover can create much better slopes for the drivers, which is beneficial to the overall sound. the only theoretical drawback is that any DSP (including the dac, usb path etc.) would create some latency, be it built in or using PC EQ, but that is mostly in the impercievable range, personally I use USB dac with analogue speaker with PC EQ and don't notice anything even in FPS gaming.
Longevity also don't seem to differ much, modern chips using in the low power range can survive decades, which outlast or is similar to electrolytic caps or so in the passive components, yes the exact DSP chip should be out of production by the time it breaks and passive parts can be repaired, but unless the speaker is spiritually connected to you I don't see how many ppl would try to spend megabucks on the restoration of old speaker when it breaks 20-30 years later, most just replace with some new toys.
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PoorAlchemist
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Ok thank you for the answer (Indeed I use google translation a lot...) For the integrated DSP I needed to be reassured and that's done. Another advantage I see in it is not having to pay for the sonar license once the setting has been saved...
SO. I just tried what everyone recommended me from the beginning: test a sonar calibration. The result is stunning. Yet I used a Neuman KMS 104 microphone, so the curve is distorted. But the potential is there. It's night and day when it comes to bass depth. I think I can maybe do without a sub...
I can consider keeping this system by buying the dedicated calibration microphone. The last thing that's going to cross me is if " should I get better with calibrated KH120 A" ...while I can exchange...
I also regret not having tried sound ID on my HS8 to have a real comparison
SO. I just tried what everyone recommended me from the beginning: test a sonar calibration. The result is stunning. Yet I used a Neuman KMS 104 microphone, so the curve is distorted. But the potential is there. It's night and day when it comes to bass depth. I think I can maybe do without a sub...
I can consider keeping this system by buying the dedicated calibration microphone. The last thing that's going to cross me is if " should I get better with calibrated KH120 A" ...while I can exchange...
I also regret not having tried sound ID on my HS8 to have a real comparison
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Well, getting a UMIK 1 isn’t expensive and a lot of guys here including me feels like it’s best investment ever.
For PC using a umik one and equalizer APO is completely free and not difficult to learn, and a few target curves are available here in ASR as rew compatible txt files, personally I use a Harmon curve and set it to correct below 200hz to tame the bass modes and just leave the comb filtering effects of my really tiny room as is and trust my brain can filter the direct vs reflected sound.
For the dsp part let’s think it this way and it will be easier to perceive:
Your pc supposedly have a lot more processing power than the dsp chip inside, but unless the speaker like the genelec 80x0 uses active analogue cross over (which is a chip without those dsp power), you have the limitation from the passive crossover and the tolerance issue of them, and you still get the digital induced latency and noise into the not completely noiseless passive crossover, so in reality there’s more issues combined, with unsure advantage
I want to Commend you for remaining cool, calm and respectful throughout this entire process. You did not respond to the aggression and kept on giving great technical advice to a new member who was coming across aggressive and hostile. How you handled this and eventually disarmed him was a great read and lesson. This is how it should be done more often. Thank you for your efforts and contributions.Thanks for taking the time to read and post. I'll try to answer in detail.
Yes, people compare speakers all the time at home. Without some knowledge of your hearing, what happens to measurements, how speakers work, the reports mean very little.
In the kind of speakers you are comparing, popular studio monitors, the abilities are generally similar. There won't be big, obvious differences. Particularly not in the bass range for speakers that are close in size.
Here is where the problem in your thinking is: speakers do not play by themselves. Speakers in a room is one system, one object.
In your first post, you said you bought A7V. A7X is a different, older speaker. Here are comprehensive measurements of it: https://www.fidelity-online.de/kompakte-studiomonitore-von-nubert-adam-und-sls/
Here are anechoic (no room influence) plots. This is just the speakers themselves, the frequency responses at 0 degrees, if you faced them directly. I extracted the data using this web app: https://automeris.io/WebPlotDigitizer/tutorial.html and then loaded it into REW.
View attachment 291696
The plot you posted appears to show in-room measurements and has significant smoothing.
Smoothing reduces the resolution (ability to see detail) of a measurement. See below.
You can match the low end but not exactly. With skill you can get it within a few dB by using EQ.
DSP is hard to implement and expensive. Using it takes skill, and a measurement microphone. If by "low cut" you mean adjust the very lowest frequencies a speaker can produce, there are still physical limits for the speakers. Below 100Hz is subwoofer territory. 8" is far too small.
I think the KH120 II + KH750 + MA1 is an excellent combination and very easy to use. KH80 is a little small.
This is a little complicated, but... small rooms do make things more complicated, and square rooms do have problems... however, in reality the speaker is in control from several hundred Hz up and dominates the response. And then all walls flex and introduce phase shift to some degree. This means that you will never have a worst case scenario since that usually assumes perfectly stiff walls.
Also, for most people, their room is never ideal. It is usually compromised in some manner. That's ok, and with good speakers it is far less of a problem.
Edit: You deleted your post. That's too bad. I'll let my reply stand. Good luck.
Bravo Zulu @Curvature
Curvature
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I want to clarify something.
WPD extracts data from images. I used Greenshot to clip the graph from the Adam pdf: https://www.adam-audio.com/content/...dio-monitor-measurement-report-v2-english.pdf
After processing through WPD, you get these datapoints:
It is extremely useful when trying to compare graphs without having the underlying data.
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PoorAlchemist
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OK thk for answering. I as more talking about the evolution of connectivity that could make the integrated DSP lost his value. When an analogique system remain flexible, because minimalist
In addition the adam audio are linked to an external software provider : sound ID. My concerns are confirmed on this software, I'll talk about it below.
Ok thank you I will try the process. Not easy at the first approach
Ok I understand when you say that possive filters from the crossovers cause some noise. But can you explain what you mean about their « limitations » ? Aren't they limited to their widest possible operating range, by definition ? Or maybe you talk about the "cut frequency" management between 2 bands ?
About de double conversion DAC ADC DAC, we admit that it cause less degradation than passive filters. But we can admit that the speakers should be connected digitally to avoid this pointless double conversion ? If there would be no gain doing this in term of quality, there would be at least a gain in term of cost and relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem of using SOUND-ID :
after the first impression, in which I really wanted to believe that it improved the sound, I had serious doubts. I re-recorded the already calibrated sound, and the result shocked me: sound-ID almost didn't change the curve !!!! The basses are worst !
Before :
After :
After several searches, I finally came across a youtuber who is not corrupted by big brand gifts and a minimum of independent. He comes to the same conclusion.
The good / bad news is that he manages to correct the curve using mini-DSP
Mini-Dsp : Blue Curve
Sound-ID : Green Curve
I believe him because I see the problem from my eyes
So tell me if I'm a bad conspirator or if there's a serious problem with this?
I will return my speakers and probably use HS8s with a mini DSP, or find out about such an efficient system without hardware.
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Curvature
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Don't jump fast from one solution to another. It'll end up costing you money.OK thk for answering. I as more talking about the evolution of connectivity that could make the integrated DSP lost his value. When an analogique system remain flexible, because minimalist
In addition the adam audio are linked to an external software provider : sound ID. My concerns are confirmed on this software, I'll talk about it below.
Ok thank you I will try the process. Not easy at the first approach
Ok I understand when you say that possive filters from the crossovers cause some noise. But can you explain what you mean about their « limitations » ? Aren't they limited to their widest possible operating range, by definition ? Or maybe you talk about the "cut frequency" management between 2 bands ?
About de double conversion DAC ADC DAC, we admit that it cause less degradation than passive filters. But we can admit that the speakers should be connected digitally to avoid this pointless double conversion ? If there would be no gain doing this in term of quality, there would be at least a gain in term of cost and relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem of using SOUND-ID :
after the first impression, in which I really wanted to believe that it improved the sound, I had serious doubts. I re-recorded the already calibrated sound, and the result shocked me: sound-ID almost didn't change the curve !!!! The basses are worst !
Before :
After :
After several searches, I finally came across a youtuber who is not corrupted by big brand gifts and a minimum of independent. He comes to the same conclusion.
The good / bad news is that he manages to correct the curve using mini-DSP
Mini-Dsp : Blue Curve
Sound-ID : Green Curve
I believe him because I see the problem from my eyes
So tell me if I'm a bad conspirator or if there's a serious problem with this?
I will return my speakers and probably use HS8s with a mini DSP, or find out about such an efficient system without hardware.
If you are running Windows try Equalizer APO with the Peace interface. Or if you have a DAW then use an PEQ plugin on your master bus.
Try REW with your current microphone to assess room sound.
For bass, try the moving microphone method rather than a single sweep.
This is my current setup for my Kali LP6 monitors. I use a 6 in 6 out interface. I have Toneboosters EQ on the monitor output in the DAW (ASIO, so can't use EQAPO) and I use EQAPO with the same EQ settings for Windows sound. I have the headphones on a different set of outputs so the applied curves don't affect them which I switch to when needed. I will eventually control the switching and volume with a custom midi controller to reduce mouse clicks.
OP
PoorAlchemist
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I'm on mac os big sur. I followed a nice tutorial for REW.
First tests it say that the level of input was to low, despite i check the -12db level. The the curve was absolutely strange
Second test, later it doesn't works. It says "waiting for timing reference", stuck at 6 %.
Ok it says the curve shouldn't be flat, related to how the curve generally leans towards the bass/treeble.
But is it normal to leave frequency peaks or holes after a calibration, like sound ID does? Why does Mini DSP manage to correct them?
EDIT : I maybe made a mistake on A Control to activate the setting. I will retry tomorrow
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for active crossover advantages I think Genelec did quite well here: https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/active-crossoversOK thk for answering. I as more talking about the evolution of connectivity that could make the integrated DSP lost his value. When an analogique system remain flexible, because minimalist
In addition the adam audio are linked to an external software provider : sound ID. My concerns are confirmed on this software, I'll talk about it below.
Ok thank you I will try the process. Not easy at the first approach
Ok I understand when you say that possive filters from the crossovers cause some noise. But can you explain what you mean about their « limitations » ? Aren't they limited to their widest possible operating range, by definition ? Or maybe you talk about the "cut frequency" management between 2 bands ?
About de double conversion DAC ADC DAC, we admit that it cause less degradation than passive filters. But we can admit that the speakers should be connected digitally to avoid this pointless double conversion ? If there would be no gain doing this in term of quality, there would be at least a gain in term of cost and relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem of using SOUND-ID :
after the first impression, in which I really wanted to believe that it improved the sound, I had serious doubts. I re-recorded the already calibrated sound, and the result shocked me: sound-ID almost didn't change the curve !!!! The basses are worst !
Before :
After :
After several searches, I finally came across a youtuber who is not corrupted by big brand gifts and a minimum of independent. He comes to the same conclusion.
The good / bad news is that he manages to correct the curve using mini-DSP
Mini-Dsp : Blue Curve
Sound-ID : Green Curve
I believe him because I see the problem from my eyes
So tell me if I'm a bad conspirator or if there's a serious problem with this?
I will return my speakers and probably use HS8s with a mini DSP, or find out about such an efficient system without hardware.
sure it can be marketing BS as any other companies out there do, but it does make some sense to me, for passive cross overs, you can only get the roll off slope so steep as the caps etc. can do, and really hard if not impossible to make one do specific stuffs to the impedance swings in drivers, that's what I refer to limitations of passives.
Also for connectivity and connection I will just state my own opinion: DSP connectivity is usually not an issue as companies usually use the interface type that lasts really long and have great backward compatibility, say Lan cables and USB ports which don't seem like it will disappear anytime soon, and newer devices, say, use USB-C which one can easily find adapter to connected to the ancient USB-A 1.0 to communicate with the really old tool.
Even say we assume the port goes dead, and you are forced to use the external computer EQ to do the job and the only theoritical drawback is going DAC->ADC->DAC path, which, although the SINAD in analyzer will found signal degradation assuming you got the top dacs, it is usually still way above hearing threshold so it doesn't matter, the basic input like RCA and XLR lasts like forever. meanwhile if you consider the speaker and amp as a whole package, though passives in theory can last longer, you just replace the whole cycle from replacing a small amp and dac plate to replacing your external dac and amp, which even environmentally isn't better than replacing the active DSP spakers in a decade or so.
not sure about Sound ID as I've never tried that, but from Adam's marketing webpage it seems Sound ID would instruct you to point mic to the acoustic center of both channels at quite a few spots around the listening position to create a profile for correction, I guess it's trying to not over correct and will depend quite a lot of points measured precisely for it to be useful, trying with a single point likely wont do muchOK thk for answering. I as more talking about the evolution of connectivity that could make the integrated DSP lost his value. When an analogique system remain flexible, because minimalist
In addition the adam audio are linked to an external software provider : sound ID. My concerns are confirmed on this software, I'll talk about it below.
Ok thank you I will try the process. Not easy at the first approach
Ok I understand when you say that possive filters from the crossovers cause some noise. But can you explain what you mean about their « limitations » ? Aren't they limited to their widest possible operating range, by definition ? Or maybe you talk about the "cut frequency" management between 2 bands ?
About de double conversion DAC ADC DAC, we admit that it cause less degradation than passive filters. But we can admit that the speakers should be connected digitally to avoid this pointless double conversion ? If there would be no gain doing this in term of quality, there would be at least a gain in term of cost and relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem of using SOUND-ID :
after the first impression, in which I really wanted to believe that it improved the sound, I had serious doubts. I re-recorded the already calibrated sound, and the result shocked me: sound-ID almost didn't change the curve !!!! The basses are worst !
Before :
After :
After several searches, I finally came across a youtuber who is not corrupted by big brand gifts and a minimum of independent. He comes to the same conclusion.
The good / bad news is that he manages to correct the curve using mini-DSP
Mini-Dsp : Blue Curve
Sound-ID : Green Curve
I believe him because I see the problem from my eyes
So tell me if I'm a bad conspirator or if there's a serious problem with this?
I will return my speakers and probably use HS8s with a mini DSP, or find out about such an efficient system without hardware.
OP
PoorAlchemist
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Ok interesting. FInaly don't think that the type of filters will be the most important argument for me.
For the internal DSP test and mesurement I did a big mistake. I disabled the DSP setting while unplugging the speakers.
SO I did it well for this time, and I can see Sound ID work.
Before :
After :
THe response is more flat. But there are less wide range.
For the internal DSP test and mesurement I did a big mistake. I disabled the DSP setting while unplugging the speakers.
SO I did it well for this time, and I can see Sound ID work.
Before :
After :
THe response is more flat. But there are less wide range.
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that looks quite ok actually, but in sound ID can you go with some target curve? this seems will sound a bit too brightOk interesting. FInaly don't think that the type of filters will be the most important argument for me.
For the internal DSP test and mesurement I did a big mistake. I disabled the DSP setting while unplugging the speakers.
SO I did it well for this time, and I can see Sound ID work.
Before :
After :
THe response is more flat. But there are less wide range.
OP
PoorAlchemist
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Yes I can it's a slightly better...
Do you know guys where to find the focal shape twin frequency response ? I'm realy bad at finding data
I'm still in hesitation between keeping the A7V like or changing for some focal or dynaudio stuff..
People say that focal 65 is more accurate, with less bass, and the 80's are deeper but have maybe to much bass
So maybe the shape twins are the sweet spot ?
I brough my A7V on the house of my friend who bought my old HS8. We compared.
HS8 = More basses.. no surprise. The sound is free to circulate in the low, you can enjoy it even at low volume. The only default is a bit of muffling.
A7V = More clear. Sometime more pleasant for acoustic music, you can realy feel cloth to the insturments.
A certain depth in the bass but we feel more that the music is locked up. That said, it avoids many muffling problems in certain parts of the room and it can be more pleasant on a daily basis
Do you know guys where to find the focal shape twin frequency response ? I'm realy bad at finding data
I'm still in hesitation between keeping the A7V like or changing for some focal or dynaudio stuff..
People say that focal 65 is more accurate, with less bass, and the 80's are deeper but have maybe to much bass
So maybe the shape twins are the sweet spot ?
I brough my A7V on the house of my friend who bought my old HS8. We compared.
HS8 = More basses.. no surprise. The sound is free to circulate in the low, you can enjoy it even at low volume. The only default is a bit of muffling.
A7V = More clear. Sometime more pleasant for acoustic music, you can realy feel cloth to the insturments.
A certain depth in the bass but we feel more that the music is locked up. That said, it avoids many muffling problems in certain parts of the room and it can be more pleasant on a daily basis
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