A7V deception... help me to change

[PoorAlchemist]

Good morning.
I just replace my old HS8 with a new pair of ADAM audio A7V which cost double..... and I'm disappointed !
They are very precise and fine on the middle-high range, but they are sorely lacking in bass. I can't accept it so I want quality speakers with as much bass as my old HS8, otherwise what the point ? ..... So I would like to exchange my ADAM A7V against something else while I can.
Several options are available to me, and I don't know what to do :


- Exchange them against dynaudio LYD8

- Focal Alpha 80

- Focal Shape Twins.

-Exchange the "A7V" for "A4V + a SUB8" Subwoofer. Is it a good idea ? Including in a small room of 15m2? I read a lot of scary things about subwoofers use

Or for more money :

- Simply add a SUB8, or an eve audio TS108, keeping the A7V.... While ADAM audio recommends the SUB10MK2 for them, which costs a kidney

- Cracking my head upgrading to a dynaudio LYD48 instead of adding a sub-bass



Thank you for your advice !

 

[MachOne]

The A7V look to have more than enough DSP capability to get them sounding as you'd like them. Have you tried some different tunings?

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's not the first time I've read they lack bass

 

[Curvature]

lacking in bass

lack bass

The room is in control at LF. You are hearing the effects of SBIR and modes, depending what frequencies you mean, not the speaker.

 

[PoorAlchemist]

The DSP can't enlarge the frequency range and the power reserve without saturation. In fact the DSP is a pointless tech-marketing stuff. Everyone should use sonar on the computer directly, before sending the signal to the monitor. That's why the analogique A8X are perfect to me. They are the real competitor against the HS8 but.. oh... They stop to produce it...... How saaaad . Now we have to buy a 1200€ Subass + calibration tools ( total 2700€), or the new A8H that cost 3000€ (not even possible to put this horizontale monster on my desk )

Now I hesitate between re-buy the HS8, or trying the " focal shape twin" for 1400€, not even knowing if it will be better than yamaha

 

[Curvature]

The DSP can't enlarge the frequency range and the power reserve without saturation. In fact the DSP is a pointless tech-marketing stuff. Everyone should use sonar on the computer directly, before sending the signal to the monitor. That's why the analogique A8X are perfect to me. They are the real competitor against the HS8 but.. oh... They stop to produce it...... How saaaad . Now we have to buy a 1200€ Subass + calibration tools ( total 2700€), or the new A8H that cost 3000€.

Now I hesitate between re-buy the HS8, or trying the shape twin for 1400€, not even knowing if it will be better

If you learn more about speakers and acoustics you not make random purchasing decisions and avoid posting uneducated stuff like this.

I'm Back! The Yamaha HS8 Studio Monitor Speaker Review.

A blog about finding the best in budget and entry level speakers. For all Average Joe Audiophiles

averagejoeaudiophile.blogspot.com

https://www.adam-audio.com/content/uploads/2023/01/adam-audio-a-series-a7v-studio-monitor-measurement-report-v2-english.pdf

 

[PoorAlchemist]

It's not the first time I've read they lack bass

Yes sadly the size matter. So the T8V that cost 1/3 the price have a better low range

If you learn more about speakers and acoustics you not make random purchasing decisions and avoid posting uneducated stuff like this.

Oh you're a genius ! Why spend dollar on big monitor ? We just have to put bass with an equaliser on a 1 inch monitor !
I think you are so uneducated by the pretentious way you are answering.

- DSP can't make a 7" sound like a 8.5"
- DSP can't resolve the lack of power reserve usable without saturation ( the LED blink when the sound is high and it saturate )

Can you contradict this with arguments ?

I'm just telling the truth that I wish someone had told me before I bought the monitors 1300€. So i'm more usefull than you are. Now I'm here to search some more precise informations to correct the shot. I spend a lot of time to it and to translate. Thank you for your help.

 

[Curvature]

Yes sadly the size matter. So the T8V that cost 1/3 the price have a better low range

Oh you're a genius ! Why spend dollar on big monitor ? We just have to put bass with an equaliser on a 1 inch monitor !
I think you are so uneducated by the pretentious way you are answering.

- DSP can't make a 7" sound like a 8.5"
- DSP can't resolve the lack of power reserve usable without saturation ( the LED blink when the sound is high and it saturate )

Can you contradict this with arguments ?

I'm just telling the truth that I wish someone had told me before I bought the monitors. So i'm more usefull than you are. Now I'm here to search some more precise informations to correct the shot. I spend a lot of time to it and to translate. Thank you for your help.

I posted measurements of the A7V and HS8. They have similar low frequency extension.

If you do not correct in room frequency response you cannot compare the speakers.

DSP and analogue designs are not fundamentally different. Analogue circuitry saturates too. In any case these active speakers rely on chip amps and DSP for crossovers and tuning.

In my post below read from number 5 onwards.

how can spinorama csv data show with zoom possible to see diffrences in bass range better ?

There are multiple reasons for the bass response to not be 100% omni polar. First is there is no truly omni polar loudspeaker. However, you also need to be aware of the spinorama measurement precisions, which affect the measurement numbers too. For example, the determination of the acoustic...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[unpluggged]

DSP can't make a 7" sound like a 8.5"

Yes it can. Look at HEDD Type 07 MK2 or Neumann KH 150 and compare their FR to your beloved HS8 or A8X.

 

[PoorAlchemist]

I posted measurements of the A7V and HS8. They have similar low frequency extension.

If you do not correct in room frequency response you cannot compare the speakers.

DSP and analogue designs are not fundamentally different. Analogue circuitry saturates too. In any case these active speakers rely on chip amps and DSP for crossovers and tuning.

In my post below read from number 5 onwards.

how can spinorama csv data show with zoom possible to see diffrences in bass range better ?

There are multiple reasons for the bass response to not be 100% omni polar. First is there is no truly omni polar loudspeaker. However, you also need to be aware of the spinorama measurement precisions, which affect the measurement numbers too. For example, the determination of the acoustic...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You talk about room corrections. Sorry I can't realy see the point. You can certainely win bass with an EQ, loosing maximal volume. Is that a good idea on a speaker that aldready blink and saturate when the level is high ? If you can make the A7V lower with a DSP, i suppose that you can make the HS8 even lower with the same process, using sonar on a computer. No ?

Yes it can. Look at HEDD Type 07 MK2 or Neumann KH 150 and compare their FR to your beloved HS8 or A8X.

Yes the KH150 that cost 3000€ sound certainely great. Maybe for other reason than an EQ.............
I concede that at this price they managed the technical feat to make a 6.5 inch sound as loud as an entry-level T8V that costs 6X less.



I'm not an expert but I don't think they achieved it with an Equalizer.
In all the case I prefer to start with a better system, regardless of the small improvements that an equalizer can bring.
I talk about physically-mechanically limitations.


But if you have a magical trick you can send me your mesurement, where the A7V sound as low end than the HS8 at the same high volume, without saturation

 

[Curvature]

You talk about room corrections. Sorry I can't realy see the point. You can certainely win bass with an EQ, loosing maximal volume. Is that a good idea on a speaker that aldready blink and saturate when the level is high ? If you can make the A7V lower with a DSP, i suppose that you can make the HS8 even lower with the same process, using sonar on a computer. No ?



Yes the KH150 that cost 3000€ sound certainely great. Maybe for other reason than an EQ.............
I concede that at this price they managed the technical feat to make a 6.5 inch sound as loud as an entry-level T8V that costs 6X less.



I'm not an expert but I don't think they achieved it with an Equalizer.
In all the case I prefer to start with a better system, regardless of the small improvements that an equalizer can bring.
I talk about physically-mechanically limitations.


But if you have a magical trick you can send me your mesurement, where the A7V sound as low end than the HS8 at the same high volume, without saturation

EQ is any modification of the signal's frequency response. All speakers have EQ, active and passive. A speaker crossover is EQ of individual drivers.

I think you will always be unhappy until you read a few books. Here are the books:

- Master Handbook of Acoustics, Seventh Edition. Ken C. Pohlmann, F. Alton Everest. 2021.
- Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Third Edition. Floyd E. Toole. 2017.
- Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers: Theory, Design and Application, Third Edition. Trevor Cox, Peter D’Antonio. 2016.

 

[unpluggged]

I'm not an expert

Yes, I have noticed it.

 

[Spkrdctr]

If you want bass you need to go to a subwoofer. There is no way to get around it with a small desktop speaker. If you were talking 10 to 12 inch drivers, then you can probably get by without a sub. As it is, get a sub or you will never be happy! Good Luck

 

[PoorAlchemist]

EQ is any modification of the signal's frequency response. All speakers have EQ, active and passive. A speaker crossover is EQ of individual drivers.

I think you will always be unhappy until you read a few books. Here are the books:

- Master Handbook of Acoustics, Seventh Edition. Ken C. Pohlmann, F. Alton Everest. 2021.
- Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Third Edition. Floyd E. Toole. 2017.
- Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers: Theory, Design and Application, Third Edition. Trevor Cox, Peter D’Antonio. 2016.

Haha it's a sketch.
Now that we know that the whole chain can modify the signal voluntarily or not. We will be interested in the transformation of the electrical signal into mechanical movement, by what is called a speaker. The maximum power admissible by a speaker without saturating or simply burning out obliges us to use it under a certain volume or to filter the bass under a certain frequency, which provide a lot of energy.
The question is "how much electrical energy the loudspeaker is able return in a air vibration without burning, while giving an appreciable amount of bass". From where I came on a forum to question your experience and your data on the capacity of restitution of the signal of the aforementioned speakers

I was wondering in particular about the bass reproduction of the twin shape compared to the HS8. Shape 65 being known to be lacking in this register

If you want bass you need to go to a subwoofer. There is no way to get around it with a small desktop speaker. If you were talking 10 to 12 inch drivers, then you can probably get by without a sub. As it is, get a sub or you will never be happy! Good Luck

In fact I was happy with the HS8 without a sub, and the T8V don't need it to. I just wanted something more premium like the A8X that doesn't exist yet

Ain't it tricky to use a sub in a small space ? Can I get something great and cheap by using small A4V with a sub8, or a T7V with a T10S ? Wouldn't it be better to switch on a 3 band speaker, with a Dynaudio Lyd48 ?

 

[PoorAlchemist]

If you want bass you need to go to a subwoofer. There is no way to get around it with a small desktop speaker. If you were talking 10 to 12 inch drivers, then you can probably get by without a sub. As it is, get a sub or you will never be happy! Good Luck

In fact I was happy with the HS8 without a sub, and the T8V don't need it to. I just wanted something more premium like the A8X which no longer exists.

Ain"t it tricky to use a sub in a small space ? Can I get something great by using small A74s with a sub8? Wouldn't it be better to witch on a 3 band system, with a Dynaudio Lyd48 ?

 

[Curvature]

Aggressively ignorant on a Saturday.

Ok.

Here is the max SPL of the Yamaha HS8: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/yamaha-hs-8/

Here is the max SPL of the Adam A7V: https://www.adam-audio.com/content/...dio-monitor-measurement-report-v2-english.pdf

The results are close the same.

You have room problems that affect bass.

Neither of these are great speakers. Same with Focal and Dynaudio. They are just ok.

Neumann or Genelec will do a better job, but, regardless, at bass frequencies you will need (1) a sub, (2) measurement microphone, (3) EQ, (4) some knowledge of acoustics.

 

[Spkrdctr]

In fact I was happy with the HS8 without a sub, and the T8V don't need it to. I just wanted something more premium like the A8X which no longer exists.

Ain"t it tricky to use a sub in a small space ? Can I get something great by using small A74s with a sub8? Wouldn't it be better to witch on a 3 band system, with a Dynaudio Lyd48 ?

I have never tried a sub in a very small space. But very small would be 3mX4m room> anything bogger than that you will be ok. You need for example a SVS Pro 1000 type of sub with the DSP they offer. Or if that is too much, you can use anything and you will just have to look at setup and volume which can take a few months of twiddling to get as good as you will get without room acoustic treatments and EQ etc. You are heading down the path of learning and setting up a system. There are a lot of great smallish subs for small rooms out there. Be sure to let us know what you end up doing and how it works out. That is the most fun part for us living vicariously through other peoples purchases!

 

[PoorAlchemist]

First of all, thank you for your patience with my ignorance.
I still can't understand some points :

You have room problems that affect bass.

You are hearing the effects of SBIR and modes, depending what frequencies you mean, not the speaker.

If you do not correct in room frequency response you cannot compare the speakers.

Fact is that people do compare the speakers, without " dsp room correction", in treated rooms to have a neutral result.
Speakers have their own abilities, regardless the way the signal is affected by a room.
Datas shows that A7X is not comparable to the the HS8 :

I posted measurements of the A7V and HS8. They have similar low frequency extension.

If I understand well, you say that after setting the DSP, the low end will match suddenly with an HS8.
I have a simple question : why they don't sell the speakers directly affected with a DSP profil that allow to do this ?
We are not talking about a "specific frequency missing". We are talking about a "low cut".


I just bough the Ethernet adapter, then download Sound ID after a full clean install of Big Sure. I can't wait to try this ! But i'm not at home...

EQ is any modification of the signal's frequency response. All speakers have EQ, active and passive. A speaker crossover is EQ of individual drivers.

I think you will always be unhappy until you read a few books.

My consideration wasn't Analogique VS digital.
My consideration was computer dst VS speakers DST
The integrated DST on speakers force to practice a double conversion, DAC, ADC, DAC. It realy sound dumb. I can't believe they did it. it's like taking a photo of a photo with a digital camera, after printing it.

If the speakers are able to convert a Digital to Analogique, we should directly plug them to te computer instead of audio card to evoid this double conversion.
We should take this "subtility" in consideration when we pay thousand dollars on speakers and audio card.

We can be sure that this aberrant system with ethernet cables will disappear in the next year for bluetooth and Wifi (for the dst setting). It's not even a sustainable investment

Neumann or Genelec will do a better job, but, regardless, at bass frequencies you will need (1) a sub, (2) measurement microphone, (3) EQ, (4) some knowledge of acoustics.

Do you think that it's a good choice to change the A7V for neuman KH80 with a subass from third-party brand like SVS Pro 1000 ?
It could cost 1600€ total, againt 3200€ for the KH150

I have never tried a sub in a very small space. But very small would be 3mX4m room> anything bogger than that you will be ok.

My room is about 4X4 ^^. Realy not big. The ceiling is very high, like 4 meter to. I don't know if it's good because it make the room being a cube.
I think it's the worst possible condition.

As if that weren't enough, space is partially eaten up by a mini rectangular bathroom, made of placo, on the rear left corner. Exactly a contraindicated situation on the user manual ^^.

Be sure to let us know what you end up doing and how it works out. That is the most fun part for us living vicariously through other peoples purchases!

Haha I understand well for having spent time to satisfy myself vicariously before this purchase. I will not forget to give my feedback whatever the choice. Thanks for your advice

 

[Curvature]

Thanks for taking the time to read and post. I'll try to answer in detail.

Fact is that people do compare the speakers, without " dsp room correction", in treated rooms to have a neutral result.
Speakers have their own abilities, regardless the way the signal is affected by a room.

Yes, people compare speakers all the time at home. Without some knowledge of your hearing, what happens to measurements, how speakers work, the reports mean very little.

In the kind of speakers you are comparing, popular studio monitors, the abilities are generally similar. There won't be big, obvious differences. Particularly not in the bass range for speakers that are close in size.

Speakers have their own abilities, regardless the way the signal is affected by a room.

Here is where the problem in your thinking is: speakers do not play by themselves. Speakers in a room is one system, one object.

Datas shows that A7X is not comparable to the the HS8 :

In your first post, you said you bought A7V. A7X is a different, older speaker. Here are comprehensive measurements of it: https://www.fidelity-online.de/kompakte-studiomonitore-von-nubert-adam-und-sls/

Here are anechoic (no room influence) plots. This is just the speakers themselves, the frequency responses at 0 degrees, if you faced them directly. I extracted the data using this web app: https://automeris.io/WebPlotDigitizer/tutorial.html and then loaded it into REW.

The plot you posted appears to show in-room measurements and has significant smoothing.

Smoothing reduces the resolution (ability to see detail) of a measurement. See below.

If I understand well, you say that after setting the DSP, the low end will match suddenly with an HS8.
I have a simple question : why they don't sell the speakers directly affected with a DSP profil that allow to do this ?
We are not talking about a "specific frequency missing". We are talking about a "low cut".

You can match the low end but not exactly. With skill you can get it within a few dB by using EQ.

DSP is hard to implement and expensive. Using it takes skill, and a measurement microphone. If by "low cut" you mean adjust the very lowest frequencies a speaker can produce, there are still physical limits for the speakers. Below 100Hz is subwoofer territory. 8" is far too small.

Do you think that it's a good choice to change the A7V for KH80 with a subass ?

I think the KH120 II + KH750 + MA1 is an excellent combination and very easy to use. KH80 is a little small.

My room is about 4X4 ^^. Realy not big. The ceiling is very high, like 4 meter to. I don't know if it's good because it make the room being a cube.
I think it's the worst possible condition.

As if that weren't enough, space is partially eaten up by a mini rectangular bathroom, made of placo, on the rear left corner. Exactly a contraindicated situation on the user manual ^^.

This is a little complicated, but... small rooms do make things more complicated, and square rooms do have problems... however, in reality the speaker is in control from several hundred Hz up and dominates the response. And then all walls flex and introduce phase shift to some degree. This means that you will never have a worst case scenario since that usually assumes perfectly stiff walls.

Also, for most people, their room is never ideal. It is usually compromised in some manner. That's ok, and with good speakers it is far less of a problem.

Edit: You deleted your post. That's too bad. I'll let my reply stand. Good luck.

 

[PoorAlchemist]

In your first post, you said you bought A7V. A7X is a different, older speaker.

Thanks for the links and the curves ! I've download rew, I can't find where are the curve data on WebPlot... i feel dumb on this

I previously post the A7X curve because I didn't knew where to find the data for the A7V. THat's the reason why I was wrong and thought there was a low-cut comparing to the HS8. But I'm impressed by the curve you posted, the A7V have nothing to do with the A7X, realy close to the HS8. So I realy have to try to calibrate them as soon as possible. Can I try with a good microphone? Even if it's not the perfect sound id reference microphone, in the meantime.

Edit: You deleted your post. That's too bad. I'll let my reply stand. Good luck.

I didn't delete my post , I must have been editing, adding this :

My consideration wasn't Analogique VS digital.
My consideration was computer dst VS speakers DST
The integrated DST on speakers force to practice a double conversion, DAC, ADC, DAC. It realy sound dumb. I can't believe they did it. it's like taking a photo of a photo with a digital camera, after printing it

If the speakers are able to convert a Digital to Analogique, we should directly plug them to te computer instead of audio card to evoid this double conversion.
We should take this "subtility" in consideration when we pay thousand dollars on speakers and audio card.

And we can be sure that this aberrant system with ethernet cables will disappear in the next year for bluetooth and Wifi (for the dst setting). It's not even a sustainable investment

That's why I wonder if I shouldn't buy analog speakers, so as not to suffer from tech-fashion of the moment who will evolve ( making the material loose is value ). Doesn't it make sense to use a DST directly on the computer? Like on this video where he set the analogique T8V