A millennial's rant on classical music

[rdenney]

Symphonie Fantastique as psychedelic—perfect.

Rick “astonished that work was composed as early as it was” Denney

 

[danadam]

That is cool! I don't buy a huge number of classical CDs but I have several of hers! I heard her interviewed on NPR quite a few years ago and that led me to her CDs. She is a wonderful artist!

I liked this one

 

[StevenEleven]

If people like to say some stereo electronics improvement helps in hearing details, I think to myself they should listen attentively to the music more than once or twice and I guarantee they’ll hear details like never before.

Anyway, this was my gateway drug to classical, as a kid, some time around 5th grade, Murray Peharia sort of before he was “the“ Murray Pehariah. I was totally spellbound by this recording. This kicked the snot out of most pop music (which I did and do love!) and even at that age I knew it. Fortunately the harmony and the intensity of the style was such as to open up my ears to jazz as well, but that’s another story.

BTW, enjoy the vinyl LP, um, goodness.

Then came Symphonie Fantastique and the Brahms symphonies and the wonderful counterpoint of some of the simpler Bach (which I could arguably sort of play a little on piano and guitar), Tchaikovsky symphony no. 6, and Chopin’s many shorter pieces. FWIW : )

Still trying to play the Bach. ; )

 

[Russell484]

OK, but what do you listen to? To read your post, if a person listened to music 10 hours a day he couldn't become conversant in "everything" , in a life time. So when you sit down in front of your HiFi, to involve yourself in the music that you love, what genre(s) do you listen to.
And don't say "everything" again cause I don't buy it.

Well last listened to abit of Shostovich Symphony, four pieces by Leroy Anderson, who composed popular pieces like Sliegh Ride, Listened to Mike Bloomfield last night, blues/rock fusion I guess you could call it with a little Raga thrown in on East-West. Listen to a little Jimi Hendrix most days, and next up I'll be listening to Mitsuko Uchida playing Schubert Impromptus and his G major Sonata. After that I will probably listen to Bach's Goldberg Variations played on harpsichord by Mahan Esfahani.
So genres I regularly listen too, often in the same day are: rock, jazz, classical, blues, and occasionally folk or bluegrass.
[

 

[Frank Dernie]

If people like to say some stereo electronics improvement helps in hearing details, I think to myself they should listen attentively to the music more than once or twice and I guarantee they’ll hear details like never before.

Anyway, this was my gateway drug to classical, as a kid, some time around 5th grade, Murray Peharia sort of before he was “the“ Murray Pehariah. I was totally spellbound by this recording. This kicked the snot out of most pop music (which I did and do love!) and even at that age I knew it. Fortunately the harmony and the intensity of the style was such as to open up my ears to jazz as well, but that’s another story.

BTW, enjoy the vinyl LP, um, goodness.

Then came Symphonie Fantastique and the Brahms symphonies and the wonderful counterpoint of some of the simpler Bach (which I could arguably sort of play a little on piano and guitar), Tchaikovsky symphony no. 6, and Chopin’s many shorter pieces. FWIW : )

Still trying to play the Bach. ; )

I very much agree with this.
It has been my experience too (except trying to play Bach on anything other than the stereo!)

 

[Leporello]

This led to an obsession with Beethoven that continues to this day, in part from seeing Beethoven as a revolutionary figure, one that would have fit into the revolutionary hype of the late 1960's/early 1970's.

I have a problem with Beethoven. I have the symphonies in my collection, several piano sonatas, the concertos, string quartets etc. But I have never really learned to like his music. Haydn and Mozart on the other hand are my favorite composers. I often have this feeling that the piano sonatas and the quartets will suddenly reveal their hidden treasures to me - one day. But I have been waiting for this revelation for decades. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have a problem with Beethoven. I have the symphonies in my collection, several piano sonatas, the concertos, string quartets etc. But I have never really learned to like his music. Haydn and Mozart on the other hand are my favorite composers. I often have this feeling that the piano sonatas and the quartets will suddenly reveal their hidden treasures to me - one day. But I have been waiting for this revelation for decades. What am I doing wrong?

I am the opposite!
I have enjoyed Beethoven for decades, I like a bit of, but by no means all, Mozart and find Haydn "frilly".
I don't think either of us is doing anything wrong, just different taste.

 

[Longshan]

Gotta hear that.

Again, what I'm talking about with Duke Ellington is different in that Duke's pieces were intended to be used in performances that were mostly improvised. The "dedicated" works of past masters might have cadenzas or other opportunities for improvisation, but improvisation is central to Jazz. Duke wrote frames for specific performers to fill in. Fundamentally different in the same way that Indian "classical" music is fundamentally different from 'Western' classical music while requiring an analogous level of musical skill.

Know Dennis Brain's Mozart & Richard Strauss, also his:

Yes, there are differences, of course. But an orchestra couldn't do what it does if it was approach like a small jazz ensemble.

 

[nerdstrike]

I have a problem with Beethoven. ...... What am I doing wrong?

Beethoven is tricky, but also awesome. In general listening to anything benefits from some "tuning in", it's similar for playing. I loved performing the cacophonies of Alfred Schnittke at 20 years old, and now I find I enjoy listening to it nearly two decades later. That is to say I enjoyed playing it before I enjoyed listening to it. Performing the music gives a different understanding of the nuances of the music, perhaps a fuller appreciation for all that's happening. Even so...

I only like Beethoven when I'm in a certain kind of mood... It's clever and intense, but if I'm not attracted to those properties in the moment, it becomes repetitive and homogenous, whereas I'm always comfortable with Liszt and Poulenc. I don't think anything will ever top being present for 200 people performing Beethoven's 9th... That 50 minutes flew by!

Basically I'm saying that some music needs the mind to be receptive, some hits you in the feels very easily and that all depends on your personality and musical experiences. There's a lot to like in Beethoven's works, but only when you have the correct on-ramp. It could be as simple as someone talking about a particular piece with enthusiasm, or praising some minutiae. Brahms got me on board with a single chord change!

If you want to get into it, maybe try talking to a serious fanatic, or some pianist you may know.

 

[amadeuswus]

I have a problem with Beethoven. I have the symphonies in my collection, several piano sonatas, the concertos, string quartets etc. But I have never really learned to like his music. Haydn and Mozart on the other hand are my favorite composers. I often have this feeling that the piano sonatas and the quartets will suddenly reveal their hidden treasures to me - one day. But I have been waiting for this revelation for decades. What am I doing wrong?

I don't think an answer to your question is to be found in the quote below from Marcel Proust; but for what it's worth --

"The reason why a work of genius is not easily admired from the first is that the man who has created it is extraordinary, that few other men resemble him. It is his work itself that, by fertilising the rare minds capable of understanding it, will make them increase and multiply. It was Beethoven's quartets themselves (the Twelfth, Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth) that devoted half a century to forming, fashioning, and enlarging the audience for Beethoven's quartets, thus marking, like every great work of art, an advance if not in the quality of artists at least in the community of minds, largely composed today of what was not to be found when the work first appeared, that is to say of persons capable of appreciating it. What is called posterity is the posterity of the work of art."

Within a Budding Grove 2: 142- 43

(I realize there are words in the quote--"genius," "rare minds," "great work of art," etc.-- that might trigger strong reactions.... Would love to hear what ASR member @Guermantes thinks of it.)

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I have a problem with Beethoven. I have the symphonies in my collection, several piano sonatas, the concertos, string quartets etc. But I have never really learned to like his music. Haydn and Mozart on the other hand are my favorite composers. I often have this feeling that the piano sonatas and the quartets will suddenly reveal their hidden treasures to me - one day. But I have been waiting for this revelation for decades. What am I doing wrong?

This is a little difficult to understand. For example, the Opus 18 quartets are patterned after Mozart and Haydn. They're among the most accessible quartets in the literature and I'm sure both H and M would have loved them. Except for maybe #5. I don't think you've spent enough time with Ludvig.

 

[Daverz]

This is a little difficult to understand. For example, the Opus 18 quartets are patterned after Mozart and Haydn. They're among the most accessible quartets in the literature and I'm sure both H and M would have loved them. Except for maybe #5. I don't think you've spent enough time with Ludvig.

I love the Haydn quartets, but have never found Beethoven's Op. 18 as accessible as his middle quartets. The string quintets and string trios seem to have more charm as well.

I don't know of a magic way in to Beethoven if he hasn't clicked with someone. They might try the earlier works like Symphony No. 1, Piano Concerto No. 1, Piano Trios Op. 1, the Septet and other wind ensemble music. I find it hard to imagine the Symphony No. 6 not appealing, but perhaps a mediocre performance might put one off. Or maybe it's later more personal works like the String Quartet Op. 132 with its moving Heiliger Dankgesang movement that will grab you.

 

[Leporello]

This is a little difficult to understand. For example, the Opus 18 quartets are patterned after Mozart and Haydn. They're among the most accessible quartets in the literature and I'm sure both H and M would have loved them. Except for maybe #5. I don't think you've spent enough time with Ludvig.

Indeed, Op.18 quartets are an exception. But the late quartets are supposed to be Pillars of Western Civilization. They are not difficult music in the same way modernist atonal music often is. But I do not get the "point" of them.

Decades ago, when I was in my mid-twenties a friend of mine was studying to be an opera singer. He was a big fan of Wagner's music. I got curious and borrowed some Wagner lps from local library (Boulez's Ring if memory serves). I did not listen to them actively, just let them play as background music. After a couple of days things started happening. I still did not have a clue what was actually happening in the opera. But I realized that I had stopped doing whatever I was doing and I just had to listen to what I "knew" was coming (the Leitmotiv thing). Very soon it was all the way: I became a Wagnerian air-Kapellmeister and also started singing various Leitmotifs while taking a shower.

Perhaps I should use this methodology with Beethoven , too.

 

[nerdstrike]

I still did not have a clue what was actually happening in the opera.

Kill da Wabbit, more or less?

How interesting... I've never acquired a taste for music passively like that (that I know of). Then again, playing in orchestras more or less forces you to tolerate all kinds of things you wouldn't otherwise go for. I did manage to develop a distaste for Irish-German speed folk though. This guy had the CD practically glued into the player in his car.

 

[Leporello]

Kill da Wabbit, more or less?

How interesting... I've never acquired a taste for music passively like that (that I know of). Then again, playing in orchestras more or less forces you to tolerate all kinds of things you wouldn't otherwise go for. I did manage to develop a distaste for Irish-German speed folk though. This guy had the CD practically glued into the player in his car.

Actually, one thing I remember having played (as a flutist) in a junior music school symphony orchestra was Beethoven's Coriolan overture. But obviously it was not enough to make me love Beethoven's music.

 

[oboist]

I can see where a preference for Mozart vs Beethoven or vice versa could come from. @Leporello from your handle you must be a Mozart opera lover. I (and I’m not the only one) think almost all Mozart is operatic. The drama is the drama of human interaction. The beauty is the beauty of one person admiring another. Beethoven is less operatic (even in his opera). The drama is the drama of inner struggle. The beauty is the beauty of individual creativity and spiritualism. Maybe the gateway drug from Mozart to Beethoven is the set of more self-reflective arias (“Ach, ich fuhl’s”) to Beethoven Op. 109 (“mit innigster empfindung”)?

 

[Leporello]

I can see where a preference for Mozart vs Beethoven or vice versa could come from. @Leporello from your handle you must be a Mozart opera lover. I (and I’m not the only one) think almost all Mozart is operatic. The drama is the drama of human interaction. The beauty is the beauty of one person admiring another. Beethoven is less operatic (even in his opera). The drama is the drama of inner struggle. The beauty is the beauty of individual creativity and spiritualism. Maybe the gateway drug from Mozart to Beethoven is the set of more self-reflective arias (“Ach, ich fuhl’s”) to Beethoven Op. 109 (“mit innigster empfindung”)?

Thanks, that is very insightful. I am indeed a Mozart opera fan, particularly fond of the Da Ponte operas. I am also a fan of the piano concertos, in which the constant "dialogue" between the soloist and orchestral parts very often reminds me of the ensembles of said operas. And just the other day I watched a Mozart quartet performance on Youtube, thinking it could be straight from Figaro (and vice versa: Figaro often sounds like a 2+ hrs chamber music work).

 

[rdenney]

I just wrote this long treatise on my path through classical music, but erased it as being just too self-indulgent. Everyone has to find their own path. But I think the entry point for Beethoven lies in the later Romantic works--the Symphonies 3, 5, and 7, and the Emperor Concerto (which I first heard live played by Emanuel Ax--that leaves a lasting impression). And then the strict approach taken by the conductor Roger Norrington, who, in the Toscanini tradition, played it as it was written, instead of over-emoting all over it with funereal tempos as was the common approach when a lot of the big recordings were made in the 50's and 60's. Those Norrington recordings (originally on the Reflexe label) are worth seeking out.

But the Ninth seems to me an endpoint for Beethoven--those seeking out Beethoven shouldn't start there. But those seeking out Wagner should definitely start with Beethoven's Ninth.

My own entry to Beethoven was the ubiquitous 5th, but when I heard it, I was maybe 11 years old and for me it was not an overplayed warhorse. It was certainly overplayed in my bedroom--I borrowed the prerecorded cassette from the library (cassettes were new) and copied it (microphone to speaker) to a Radio Shack portable recorder that had been a Christmas present. I wore that tape out--the 5th on one side and Schubert's Unfinished on the flip side.

That was also before A Clockwork Orange, which changed the way the young and the hip looked at Ludwig Van for quite a while.

The first Beethoven work I was involved with as a musician was Egmont, probably age 14 or 15, but then I play tuba, and that instrument had not yet been invented.

Rick "never a deep Mozart fan, it must be admitted, though I have a few of the important symphonies and a couple of the operas" Denney

 

[Old Listener]

I love the Haydn quartets, but have never found Beethoven's Op. 18 as accessible as his middle quartets. The string quintets and string trios seem to have more charm as well.

I don't know of a magic way in to Beethoven if he hasn't clicked with someone. They might try the earlier works like Symphony No. 1, Piano Concerto No. 1, Piano Trios Op. 1, the Septet and other wind ensemble music.

I was thinking of those works too. Plus the 3 Op.2 piano sonatas.

 

[Old Listener]

I am the opposite!
I have enjoyed Beethoven for decades, I like a bit of, but by no means all, Mozart and find Haydn "frilly".
I don't think either of us is doing anything wrong, just different taste.

Some Haydn that I don't find frilly:

Haydn Cello Concerto in C - 3rd movement
The performance is full of life and the soloist (a 13-14 year old girl) is enjoying it so much.

Joseph Haydn / Symphony No. 39 in G minor (Solomons)
The minor key "Sturm und Drang" symphony that inspired Mozart's little G minor symphony) and other composer's works.
The Solomons recording is my favorite with David Blum close behind. A very good recent recording:
Haydn - Symphony No. 39 in G minor (Il Giardino Armonico, Giovanni Antonini)

J. Haydn - Hob I:48 - Second version - Symphony No. 48 in C major "Maria Theresa" (Solomons)
Period instruments, high horns and the manic pace make this recording my favorite.

Symphony No. 82 in C Major, Hob. I: 82 "The Bear": I. Vivace assai
Bernstein /NYPO are quite good in all the Paris Symphonies (82-87).

All Youtube videos but you can listen to the performances immediately and for free.