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A millennial's rant on classical music

ahofer

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Maybe--probably yes to being exposed as a child but not necessarily because of what was played in the home. The only classical music played in our home was what I was playing, but I did take a course in elementary school called "Music Appreciation", which included a lot of exposure to the classical warhorse literature.

Rick "whose collection includes at least some of just about everything except--and not for want of trying to get it--hip-hop" Denney
Netflix, I think, ran a long documentary series on hip-hop (Hip-Hop Evolution), from roots in NY to LA, Atlanta, etc. It really helped me get a sense of the different sounds and an appreciation for how that particular artistry evolved. I still don’t put it on much, but I found myself much more interested in the sound & poetry, and introduced me to Rakim, for instance, who is definitely worth a listen.

(I’m sure my talking about Rakim is like a Jazz newbie saying they ‘discovered’ Sonny Rollins, but you gotta start somewhere)
 

robwpdx

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I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a relaxed and intelligent discussion about this topic. I just want to say ahead of time that I have no intention of personally hurting anyone, and what I write here represents my opinions alone (and possibly other people like me, but here I only speak for myself). And most importantly, I write here in the hope of changing my mind and maybe realize things I haven't known or thought of before.

As a starting point, this rant is somewhat a continuation of this old thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ou-get-everyone-to-like-classical-music.1729/

I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. And I'm not talking about hearing some accidental Mozart on the radio. My father (and also my mother to a lesser degree) is a huge classical music buff with a massive CD collection that I've heard in its entirety probably multiple times through the course of my life, as he played it in the house and in his car. I've been to several classical concerts with my parents, and even at operas (at Verona amphitheatre no less). I took piano lessons through my childhood, and can recognize by name quite a few classical pieces, and some of the easier ones I knew how to play at some point (forgot all my training by now though).

And despite all of this (or possibly because all of this…), I really hate classical music. I never listen to it by my own free will, I avoid concerts like the plague, and every time I tried to listen to something classical that might be "the one" to turn me, I got bored super-fast and didn't make it all the way through. There is no period or composer or instrument that can make me sit all the way through a piece. Music from the modern period and early periods (baroque and earlier) are especially agonizing, while to the romantic and classical periods I can listen as background music if I must. Opera and anything with singers sound completely horrible to me.

Now, it's not an issue with the music itself, so to speak (more on this later). I don't have allergy to violins and I don't mind listening to a solo piano (I do specifically hate opera-style singing, but that's not the majority of classical music anyway). And when a classical piece is adapted to a different genre, such as jazz or rock, I can comfortably sit and listen to it all the way through. I can find myself whistling classical tunes to myself occasionally because they are so engrained in my memory.

No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.

It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.

Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.

The final cultural weirdness is the separation between composer and performer. It's to be expected from a genre whose composers mostly past away years ago and require many dozens of players to play most of its repertoire. But still, the fact that you not only need to find the right piece, but also the right performance in the right venue with the right orchestra being conducted by the right conductor, in order to listen to the truest or best form of that piece… it makes things very frustrating. The fact that there is not 'definite' version of a piece (akin to the album version of a song), puts more steps in the way of an uninitiated person's ability to appreciate the actual music itself.

That brings me to the minor but still crucial obstacle preventing me from actually appreciating classical music – the music. As I said before, there are pieces that I can enjoy humming and don't mind listening to in the background, and the instruments of the genre are fine by themselves. I love film scores and they are made of the same instruments and arranging techniques of classical music. The major issue I have is, for a lack of a better word, the overall blandness.

There is some percentage of classical music that is instantly catchy and widely recognizable, but the core repertoire is made of numerous symphonies and concertos that are mostly drone out and downright boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to stick to just short catchy songs. Most of my favorite music is made of long and complex prog-rock, jazz and metal pieces and songs, that take multiple listens to fully appreciate, and sometimes require deep understanding in musical theory to get to the bottom of. I am no stranger to deep diving into an intricate musical piece and exploring it to its fullest. I enjoy loud and energetic music as much as quiet and emotional one, and neither dynamics nor emotional content scares me.

But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less. The harmonic content is often too consonant to a point of predictability, and every 'experimental' aspect of harmony or melody is very primitive compared to even the simplest of jazz or prog-rock. The constraints of the same typical orchestral instruments in all the pieces leads to dynamics that are pretty limited in their expression – they can't convey the exploding emotional effects of an electronic bass drop or searing guitar solos. The very long pieces like symphonies seem to me like they could be shortened by 80% while not losing any of the actual interesting parts. Most of it is transitions leading to build ups leading to wind downs and so forth without a real point to it all. And for some reason, modern classical music went deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of heady academic avant-garde, instead of trying to produce music that actually connect with people that don't have a bachelor degree in music. I see no justification in any art form that is produced to be consumed by only its producer.

Those are the main reasons why I don't like classical music. But this is frustrating, because I want to like it. I know that a lot of the modern music that I consume (whether prog-rock or films scores) was inspired by classical music. I hear all the people that tell about their transcendent experiences from listening to it, and I really believe them that they had those experiences, while I can't imagine having those myself listening to this music. It's not that I'm not getting all the emotional and spiritual fulfillment one needs from the music I listen to, because I do. But if there is something more to explore that I haven't been able to, it makes me feel like I'm missing out on a whole range of new possible musical sensations. From the little classical pieces that I do like, I can tell there is untapped potential for enjoyment, that is so far have laid just out of reach. The obstacles I listed above are not easy to overcome, but I hope there is a way to do so that will start me on a journey of rediscovery of this genre of music.

Thank you for your time, to whoever managed to read up to this point. Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome :)
I found this post because I was going to make a new one suggesting the book Lexicon of the Musical Invective. ASR writers have cited it several times. My understanding is that baroque music in its day was improvisational, like jazz, or today's jam bands - Phish, etc.

Classical music is broad. Don't give up. I made another post about a now 35 year old classical pianist Ayse Deniz Gokcin. Start with her arrangements for piano of millennial pop songs.

Everybody does not have to like the same thing.

 

ahofer

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Yeesh, that old post came into my email with this late comment. The strawmen are piled pretty high there - about classical performers attitudes, “consonance”, prog rock being more complex, etc.

Certainly ”classical” in that poster’s vocabulary was a Western creation, but everywhere it met folk or vernacular tradition, they grew and splintered into something new and wonderful. One should recognize that in Dvorak and Bartok and Duke Ellington and Gershwin and Thelonious Monk and Coltrane and Prog Rock and Trombone Shorty…
 

Willem

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For me it is all very simple. Classical music is historical music, just like Rembrand is historical art and the Parthenon is historical architecture. I am a European with a strong sense of my historical heritage, so I like visiting old cities and watching landscapes that show the traces of thousands of years of habitation. Musically, Bach more than any other historical composer leaves me in contemplative awe.
I also live in the present so I buy modern art, live in modern architecture, and also listen to jazz, which to me is the foundation of modern music. Why can you not enjoy the present and the past as well, while appreciating that the past is different from the present?
 

ahofer

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I feel like often the dialogue sets styles apart instead of emphasizing my point above ("everywhere it met folk or vernacular tradition, they grew and splintered into something new and wonderful"). Truly, all great musicians and composers stand on the shoulders of those who came before, and the best have sought out new ideas that 'work'. It makes as little sense to underemphasize the role that Western formal traditions have played as to claim that everything great comes out of the formal tradition. I offer you a few samples from a huge literature. If you want to choose a few to investigate with google and your streaming service, I would suggest Dvorak, Debussy, and Bartok. Yet Brahms, with his fondness for Hungarian folk music, deserves some credit for paving the path for those luminaries' broader explorations.

And today we have similar explorers like Brad Mehldau, Pat Metheny, Herbie Hancock, Paul Simon, and....countless others I am delinquent for omitting.

It is the vast kaleidoscope of musical evolution that is connected across time and wondrous.










Extra credit: Listen to the last chords of this (3 minutes in), and tell me if you recognize it:


That was Renee Rosnes, casually tossing that in, not Bill. They are both fantastic - and married to each other.

The piece she quotes at the end was like a gateway drug for me. Both into more music in the formal/concert tradition as well as Jazz and theory. I was 15, and brought up on mostly late classical and rock. What was going on there? I had to find out.
 
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Capitol C

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I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a relaxed and intelligent discussion about this topic. I just want to say ahead of time that I have no intention of personally hurting anyone, and what I write here represents my opinions alone (and possibly other people like me, but here I only speak for myself). And most importantly, I write here in the hope of changing my mind and maybe realize things I haven't known or thought of before.

As a starting point, this rant is somewhat a continuation of this old thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ou-get-everyone-to-like-classical-music.1729/

I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. And I'm not talking about hearing some accidental Mozart on the radio. My father (and also my mother to a lesser degree) is a huge classical music buff with a massive CD collection that I've heard in its entirety probably multiple times through the course of my life, as he played it in the house and in his car. I've been to several classical concerts with my parents, and even at operas (at Verona amphitheatre no less). I took piano lessons through my childhood, and can recognize by name quite a few classical pieces, and some of the easier ones I knew how to play at some point (forgot all my training by now though).

And despite all of this (or possibly because all of this…), I really hate classical music. I never listen to it by my own free will, I avoid concerts like the plague, and every time I tried to listen to something classical that might be "the one" to turn me, I got bored super-fast and didn't make it all the way through. There is no period or composer or instrument that can make me sit all the way through a piece. Music from the modern period and early periods (baroque and earlier) are especially agonizing, while to the romantic and classical periods I can listen as background music if I must. Opera and anything with singers sound completely horrible to me.

Now, it's not an issue with the music itself, so to speak (more on this later). I don't have allergy to violins and I don't mind listening to a solo piano (I do specifically hate opera-style singing, but that's not the majority of classical music anyway). And when a classical piece is adapted to a different genre, such as jazz or rock, I can comfortably sit and listen to it all the way through. I can find myself whistling classical tunes to myself occasionally because they are so engrained in my memory.

No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.

It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.

Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.

The final cultural weirdness is the separation between composer and performer. It's to be expected from a genre whose composers mostly past away years ago and require many dozens of players to play most of its repertoire. But still, the fact that you not only need to find the right piece, but also the right performance in the right venue with the right orchestra being conducted by the right conductor, in order to listen to the truest or best form of that piece… it makes things very frustrating. The fact that there is not 'definite' version of a piece (akin to the album version of a song), puts more steps in the way of an uninitiated person's ability to appreciate the actual music itself.

That brings me to the minor but still crucial obstacle preventing me from actually appreciating classical music – the music. As I said before, there are pieces that I can enjoy humming and don't mind listening to in the background, and the instruments of the genre are fine by themselves. I love film scores and they are made of the same instruments and arranging techniques of classical music. The major issue I have is, for a lack of a better word, the overall blandness.

There is some percentage of classical music that is instantly catchy and widely recognizable, but the core repertoire is made of numerous symphonies and concertos that are mostly drone out and downright boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to stick to just short catchy songs. Most of my favorite music is made of long and complex prog-rock, jazz and metal pieces and songs, that take multiple listens to fully appreciate, and sometimes require deep understanding in musical theory to get to the bottom of. I am no stranger to deep diving into an intricate musical piece and exploring it to its fullest. I enjoy loud and energetic music as much as quiet and emotional one, and neither dynamics nor emotional content scares me.

But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less. The harmonic content is often too consonant to a point of predictability, and every 'experimental' aspect of harmony or melody is very primitive compared to even the simplest of jazz or prog-rock. The constraints of the same typical orchestral instruments in all the pieces leads to dynamics that are pretty limited in their expression – they can't convey the exploding emotional effects of an electronic bass drop or searing guitar solos. The very long pieces like symphonies seem to me like they could be shortened by 80% while not losing any of the actual interesting parts. Most of it is transitions leading to build ups leading to wind downs and so forth without a real point to it all. And for some reason, modern classical music went deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of heady academic avant-garde, instead of trying to produce music that actually connect with people that don't have a bachelor degree in music. I see no justification in any art form that is produced to be consumed by only its producer.

Those are the main reasons why I don't like classical music. But this is frustrating, because I want to like it. I know that a lot of the modern music that I consume (whether prog-rock or films scores) was inspired by classical music. I hear all the people that tell about their transcendent experiences from listening to it, and I really believe them that they had those experiences, while I can't imagine having those myself listening to this music. It's not that I'm not getting all the emotional and spiritual fulfillment one needs from the music I listen to, because I do. But if there is something more to explore that I haven't been able to, it makes me feel like I'm missing out on a whole range of new possible musical sensations. From the little classical pieces that I do like, I can tell there is untapped potential for enjoyment, that is so far have laid just out of reach. The obstacles I listed above are not easy to overcome, but I hope there is a way to do so that will start me on a journey of rediscovery of this genre of music.

Thank you for your time, to whoever managed to read up to this point. Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome :)
In the end, that's what makes horse races.
 

Tim Link

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The classics, "fixed" for millennials.
 

MattHooper

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Ha! Just discovered this rant.

I could have written a similar rant about not liking "The Blues." :) (Don't get me started).

Funny enough, many of the things the OP mentions as off-putting are some of the things I like about classical music.
 

Tim Link

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I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a relaxed and intelligent discussion about this topic. I just want to say ahead of time that I have no intention of personally hurting anyone, and what I write here represents my opinions alone (and possibly other people like me, but here I only speak for myself). And most importantly, I write here in the hope of changing my mind and maybe realize things I haven't known or thought of before.

As a starting point, this rant is somewhat a continuation of this old thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ou-get-everyone-to-like-classical-music.1729/

I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. And I'm not talking about hearing some accidental Mozart on the radio. My father (and also my mother to a lesser degree) is a huge classical music buff with a massive CD collection that I've heard in its entirety probably multiple times through the course of my life, as he played it in the house and in his car. I've been to several classical concerts with my parents, and even at operas (at Verona amphitheatre no less). I took piano lessons through my childhood, and can recognize by name quite a few classical pieces, and some of the easier ones I knew how to play at some point (forgot all my training by now though).

And despite all of this (or possibly because all of this…), I really hate classical music. I never listen to it by my own free will, I avoid concerts like the plague, and every time I tried to listen to something classical that might be "the one" to turn me, I got bored super-fast and didn't make it all the way through. There is no period or composer or instrument that can make me sit all the way through a piece. Music from the modern period and early periods (baroque and earlier) are especially agonizing, while to the romantic and classical periods I can listen as background music if I must. Opera and anything with singers sound completely horrible to me.

Now, it's not an issue with the music itself, so to speak (more on this later). I don't have allergy to violins and I don't mind listening to a solo piano (I do specifically hate opera-style singing, but that's not the majority of classical music anyway). And when a classical piece is adapted to a different genre, such as jazz or rock, I can comfortably sit and listen to it all the way through. I can find myself whistling classical tunes to myself occasionally because they are so engrained in my memory.

No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.

It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.

Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.

The final cultural weirdness is the separation between composer and performer. It's to be expected from a genre whose composers mostly past away years ago and require many dozens of players to play most of its repertoire. But still, the fact that you not only need to find the right piece, but also the right performance in the right venue with the right orchestra being conducted by the right conductor, in order to listen to the truest or best form of that piece… it makes things very frustrating. The fact that there is not 'definite' version of a piece (akin to the album version of a song), puts more steps in the way of an uninitiated person's ability to appreciate the actual music itself.

That brings me to the minor but still crucial obstacle preventing me from actually appreciating classical music – the music. As I said before, there are pieces that I can enjoy humming and don't mind listening to in the background, and the instruments of the genre are fine by themselves. I love film scores and they are made of the same instruments and arranging techniques of classical music. The major issue I have is, for a lack of a better word, the overall blandness.

There is some percentage of classical music that is instantly catchy and widely recognizable, but the core repertoire is made of numerous symphonies and concertos that are mostly drone out and downright boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to stick to just short catchy songs. Most of my favorite music is made of long and complex prog-rock, jazz and metal pieces and songs, that take multiple listens to fully appreciate, and sometimes require deep understanding in musical theory to get to the bottom of. I am no stranger to deep diving into an intricate musical piece and exploring it to its fullest. I enjoy loud and energetic music as much as quiet and emotional one, and neither dynamics nor emotional content scares me.

But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less. The harmonic content is often too consonant to a point of predictability, and every 'experimental' aspect of harmony or melody is very primitive compared to even the simplest of jazz or prog-rock. The constraints of the same typical orchestral instruments in all the pieces leads to dynamics that are pretty limited in their expression – they can't convey the exploding emotional effects of an electronic bass drop or searing guitar solos. The very long pieces like symphonies seem to me like they could be shortened by 80% while not losing any of the actual interesting parts. Most of it is transitions leading to build ups leading to wind downs and so forth without a real point to it all. And for some reason, modern classical music went deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of heady academic avant-garde, instead of trying to produce music that actually connect with people that don't have a bachelor degree in music. I see no justification in any art form that is produced to be consumed by only its producer.

Those are the main reasons why I don't like classical music. But this is frustrating, because I want to like it. I know that a lot of the modern music that I consume (whether prog-rock or films scores) was inspired by classical music. I hear all the people that tell about their transcendent experiences from listening to it, and I really believe them that they had those experiences, while I can't imagine having those myself listening to this music. It's not that I'm not getting all the emotional and spiritual fulfillment one needs from the music I listen to, because I do. But if there is something more to explore that I haven't been able to, it makes me feel like I'm missing out on a whole range of new possible musical sensations. From the little classical pieces that I do like, I can tell there is untapped potential for enjoyment, that is so far have laid just out of reach. The obstacles I listed above are not easy to overcome, but I hope there is a way to do so that will start me on a journey of rediscovery of this genre of music.

Thank you for your time, to whoever managed to read up to this point. Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome :)
I've been thinking about this thread lately, as someone who enjoys classical music, and agrees with the OP that the culture is strange. But I would argue that a lot of musical culture is strange, tending to devolve into a kind of personality cult, obsessing over performers and composers, who often seem to obsess over themselves in their music and on the stage. This sells, so those who do this sort of self aggrandizement often get popular. I don't like going to concerts with big stars, and I'm happy to hear lesser performers play music. Music is robust, and does not require excessive talent to be performed in an effective manner. For me, the performers and composers are appreciated, but I'm there to hear the music, not to pay attention to them or their amazing skills and talents. I ride a bus to get somewhere, not to be driven by a particular bus driver. The driver has a job to do, and should be compensated and appreciated for their effort and skill. They don't need excessive attention from passengers. Glen Gould quit performing live, I understand, specifically because he wanted people to focus on the music and not him. Oddly, he couldn't stop grunting while playing so if you listen to his recordings you'll get grunts to go along with the music, making it difficult to ignore the performer. It's funny but not that big a deal.

I also agree with the OP that modern music has developed more sophisticated techniques, like new fancy chord shifts, syncopated rhythms, etc. These are cool in their own way, but I find they have limited application in terms of the deeper messages music is capable of communicating. I could argue against an excellent book by saying I didn't like the limited vocabulary, and simple ways the author constructed their sentences and paragraphs. While I like a sophisticated turn of phrase as much as anyone, more important to me is what is in the underlying message. This is where I find classical, orchestral, and operatic music to be most interesting. It actually has interesting things to say, musically speaking, even if the musical techniques it uses are relatively simple and primitive. At least for me it does. If I sit down and listen to opera or various symphonies and concertos written over the last couple centuries, I find myself brought into head spaces, feelings about the natural world and society, existence itself, that are quite beautiful and difficult, if not impossible to express by other means. They convey visions of life that I find captivating and revitalizing. They are the polar opposite of cynical, dismissive, or irreverent worldviews. Classical music has cultural, philosophical, spiritual messages in it that I don't hear in other kinds of music. Other kinds of music have their own messages. Some jazz reveals some really intriguing head spaces. Most modern pop music, and music scores for modern movies, is for me, rather vacuous in this regard. There's not a lot of meat on the bone in terms of deeper messages that can be conveyed to the mind. It's frivolous, even if technically excellent. Some of it is very specific to causes or situations, and I see the importance of that. It's a different use of music. I listen to NPR and they interview a lot of current musicians who are making an impact. Most of those people seem to be using music to express very specific concerns and issues that relate to their own lives and resonate with enough other people that it makes an impact. These people are distracted by the realities of their current struggles that keep their focus on the issues right in front of them, not allowing them the privilege to explore freely the deeper issues beyond personal and political strivings.

My friends and acquaintances have told me in the past that they didn't like classical music because of the cultural rift. The music was written by and for a privileged class that didn't face the same struggles and joys that they do. I'm not in that privileged class either. But I look past the privilege and classism and see that those wealthy and privileged composers had the luxury and freedom to explore more universal themes of existence, more idealistic potentials. A lot of good stuff comes out of people who have the privilege to get their nose off the grindstone long enough to take a look outside of themselves and their personal issues, to have a glimpse that goes beyond how they're getting along with their girlfriend or boyfriend, how they like to drive their car fast, or show off their bling, or how they're struggling and being oppressed, as musically valid as all those issues are. Darwin was of a privileged class, and because of that he was able to explore concepts of biological evolution and write a book that I can read and understand, opening a new perspective on life to everyone. It's hard to imagine that a person caught up as a victim of racism, domestic abuse, poverty, etc. could have managed to achieve what Darwin did with his more fortunate position in life.
 

pablolie

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Make your own culture. I listen to classical *i* like all the time. I don't feel compelled to wear an effing black tie. Tying together the music and the "perceived culture" is idiotic. You don't have to shoot heroin and kill yourself to enjoy Bill Evans, or Amy Winehouse or Kurt Cobain or whoever, for effs sake. Separate the people from the music.

It is NOT a homogenous genre in any way shape or form. Within the exact same concert you can find parts you adore or that do not gel with your personal preference at all.

I read the first page rant and it is written by someone with pathetic knowledge about the different styles, the modern composers, the amazing breadth of options. If I were to write a critique of, say, Harry Potter movies (which I hate) I'd sound equally ignorant, because the truth is I have never watched any of them due to my own internal biases and my inability to explore them with an open mind. And that's why I don't write about subjects I am ignorant about.
 
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pablolie

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I would have to disagree considering how Back to Black is mastered.
I'd recommend to call a helpline. :)

I love Bill Evans. I am not an Amy Winehouse or Jimi Hendrix or etc etc [the list of drug suicides in music is long] expert. My point is - the perceived "culture" of where it came from is irrelevant.
 

Sal1950

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I've been thinking about this thread lately, as someone who enjoys classical music, and agrees with the OP that the culture is strange. But I would argue that a lot of musical culture is strange, tending to devolve into a kind of personality cult, obsessing over performers and composers, who often seem to obsess over themselves in their music and on the stage.
Not only the "music culture", but IME the greater numbers of the "artistic culture" period are a bit weird and strange.
It's only us mechanically oriented folk that have their heads on straight. :p
 

pablolie

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There is no pretentiousness in any other music? Like people that pay and brag about paying 10K for the Taylor Swift "experience" in Levi's Stadium? It has zero to do with the music, and the pretentiousness is down to the pretenders. There are plenty of opportunities to experience classical -or jazz or any other music- in small, intimate venues. It's up to personal choice whether to make the effort to find those.
 

pablolie

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But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less.

Right there, it is an ignorant and uneducated comment. Just as one example - Pachelbel's Canon has been resampled ad infinutum from jazz to hip hop (check out Coolio's "I'll see you when you get there"). There are a zillion more.
 

MRC01

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... This is where I find classical, orchestral, and operatic music to be most interesting. It actually has interesting things to say, musically speaking, even if the musical techniques it uses are relatively simple and primitive. ...
I agree with your key points and couldn't have said it better. But I'll question this one. The modern/pop I've heard is so musically simplistic it's boring to listen to. Add to that the subject matter is stuff I couldn't care less about and it leads to the analogy of pop music being like reading a book about a topic I don't care about, written with 1st grade vocabulary and sentence structure. People can call me a music snob and I won't argue with that, but I at least acknowledge that I'm not a fan and I haven't heard a lot of it, so perhaps my view suffers from limited sample bias. Which, incidentally, is also true of many people who don't like classical music.

PS: some people who claim that classical music is simplistic (this is in general, not necessarily directed at @Tim Link ), are not aware of its structure and interplay of harmony, counterpoint, etc. With no exposure or introduction to this music, they haven't trained their ears & brain to hear it.
 
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Philbo King

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I think your beef is with classical-music culture, not the music itself.
I would agree with some of your criticism. The culture today is largely petrified and resistant to new composers and works. But much classical, in its day, was a mass-market popular art form. Even in the first part of the 20th century, many people outside the upper class were familiar with classical works and could play an instrument. So I’d suggest trying to separate the music from the culture that surrounds it. Can you listen with fresh ears?
My thesis is that once the music is taught as an academic pursuit in universities, the spirit is eroded and banality results. True of both classical and jazz...
 

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Greetings from Bayreuth. The dress code is much more relaxed than I thought - a welcome thing imho. If I ever get here again I will leave my black suit home. General atmosphere is more convivial than stuffy even if this is supposed to a cornerstone of Serious Highbrow Culture.
IMG_0789.jpeg
 

Sal1950

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There is no pretentiousness in any other music? Like people that pay and brag about paying 10K for the Taylor Swift "experience" in Levi's Stadium?
What kind of "experience" is Taylor offering for $10k?
Actually I thought that was illegal?
Seriously I have no interest in Taylor and wouldn't buy a ticket for any amount, but that's me.

IME on the internet, there is a heavy amount of "superior attiude" in the classical music community.
Personally I have no knowledge of the classical genre but common sense tell me there was just as much
bad music composed in the days of Bach, Beethoven, Mosart and the rest as there is today.
So what is "classical"? If it defines excellent composition, classical music has been being written for
ever. I have a feeling in another century some of Pink Floyd, Alan Parson's and Steven Wilsons music will
still be being played. Will it then be become "Classical"
Roll Over Beethoven and Tell Tchaikovsky The News. LOL
 

Barrelhouse Solly

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It's a matter of taste. When I was a pre-schooler in the late '40s my mom had the radio on most of the day. She listened to classical and pop music depending on her mood. I liked both, although she told me that the first time I heard something in a minor mode on the classical station I cried. When I was in the high school chorus we sang some stuff by Bach and Mozart and the obligatory Christmas choruses from Messiah. That's when I started liking classical music actively. I went nuts over the polyphonic stuff. Bach is my favorite. I get a big kick out of Purcell too. I don't care for much past 1825. I'm an OG fan. Most Romantic music leaves me cold. Bach is a lot like jazz in some respects. A lot of solos from Charlie Parker and most later players have very similar rhythmic things going on to what Bach did. Bach didn't swing though. I remember the Swingle Singers though. A lot of bop and post bop has the same convoluted path back to the I chord that Bach followed in a different way.

My favorite music is probably pre-WWII blues though. The incredible variety of regional styles and the lyrics make me happy.

Short answer is: "I don't know much about music but I know what I like," is a perfectly reasonable point of view. Nobody is going to learn to like a kind of music, art, literature,... from learning about the technical aspects. The emotional impact is what does it. The technical side becomes interesting when you start thinking about what you like about the music or whatever. You have to like it first. E. g. I sing better than I can play any instrument. I'm fascinated with performance techniques and listen critically to every vocal. I don't care for operatic performance practice. I know it takes monster vocal equipment and 10 to 20 years of training to become an opera singer. I hear what the singers are trying to do. The problem for me is that I don't care for the end result.
 
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