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$9 Headphone Review: Sony MDR-ZX110

stalepie2

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Ah, the analog "purity" idea.
If you delve deeper here, I think you'll come to see that it's simply impossible for designers to make a speaker or headphone follow the exact curve they want, solely analog. They can get very close, but there will always be physical limitations only DSP can solve.
Have you done 10 band PEQ, or are you just using graphic EQ by ear? The former always makes a larger difference than the latter, especially when assisted by tools like AutoEQ. Either way, make sure your reference is good. A very large amount of music is actually pretty useless for helping with EQ. You want sound evenly spread out through the frequency range, like pink noise. Some very busy genres, when well recorded, like fast classical, rock, or metal are good for this. Tracks you know particularly well can help of course.
This is just my understanding so far. I try to refine my methods and knowledge as I go.
Still, I agree that certain frequency responses make sense for certain situations. My main point is PEQ can refine anything, whether you're going for the Harman Target, your own custom curve, or improving the stock curve to your liking.
I tried Amir's settings in some program, I forget which, Roon? loon? whatever it's called. Did not like the way it sounded. I've tried others in the past, like foobar, Winamp, an old stereo, etc. It'll sometimes be the case that I initially like my tweaks, dropping treble down, only to find out later that another piece of music sounds better with the EQ turned off. There's also a lot of ear adjustment that goes on, psychologically, where you think you like something, and then next week you try your EQ settings again and wonder what you were thinking, and you just prefer it left off. I'm sure a lot of people have had that same experience?

But I'm not talking about whether flat is bad, I'm talking about how there's more to a headphone's sound than the frequency response, and how you can't just EQ every headphone to sound the same. It's absurd. For instance, a V or U-shaped response tends to result in a more spacious sound, so it's there on purpose by the headphone makers. It creates a more enveloping sound. And it's hard not to think that the driver's design or selection, as well as the pads and cups and other features, weren't based around that too, in many cases.
 
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MayaTlab

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But I'm not talking about whether flat is bad, I'm talking about how there's more to a headphone's sound than the frequency response, and how you can't just EQ every headphone to sound the same.

If THD's low enough (and it is for most well engineered headphones - note that IMO most headphones aren't well engineered, regardless of price) it might actually be the case that with headphones, FR is all there is : https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/gbdi7v
But indeed you probably can't EQ every headphones to sound the same. It becomes a challenge if they have inconsistent FR across seatings or high positional variation, are susceptible to breach of seal, numerous high Q peaks / nulls, poor channel matching (if your EQ software applies the same filters to both channels), etc. It's quite likely the Sony this thread's about suffers from most of those ailments.

And more importantly for them to sound the same to you, we'd need to measure their FR at your own eardrum. The likelihood that two headphones equalised to the same target on artificial ears will exhibit audible differences on your head is very high (but that certainly doesn't mean that artificial ears / dummy head measurements are invalid or useless, far from it).
 

uwotm8

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I tried EQing several phones of different types and really liked how that worked only with AKG Q701s due to fixing really annoying 2.5 kHz peak and missing bass as well. Used AutoQE database preset for that. In all other cases I got overall too polite and liveless sound with arguable overwhelming bass and strange HF artifacts/specific sound effect, for me it sounded too dull, like opposing version of peaking treble (while I'd like a balanced one)

The target was Harman "sound for the masses" ofc:rolleyes: which I believe is a sort of "showroom seller" too

So, the positive: polite comfortable sound, perfect for audio books:p
Negative: dull and unexciting music presentation oftenly

P.S. I think Beyer 990s actually sound OK if you like their signature. Never tried pushing them to limit same as the others - I don't listen loud so I didn't notice any distortion
 

phoenixsong

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I think saying that all headphones sound the same after slapping on EQ to match an identical FR response is a huge insult to many competent folk out there
 

stalepie2

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If THD's low enough (and it is for most well engineered headphones - note that IMO most headphones aren't well engineered, regardless of price) it might actually be the case that with headphones, FR is all there is : https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/gbdi7v
But indeed you probably can't EQ every headphones to sound the same. It becomes a challenge if they have inconsistent FR across seatings or high positional variation, are susceptible to breach of seal, numerous high Q peaks / nulls, poor channel matching (if your EQ software applies the same filters to both channels), etc. It's quite likely the Sony this thread's about suffers from most of those ailments.

And more importantly for them to sound the same to you, we'd need to measure their FR at your own eardrum. The likelihood that two headphones equalised to the same target on artificial ears will exhibit audible differences on your head is very high (but that certainly doesn't mean that artificial ears / dummy head measurements are invalid or useless, far from it).

In the comments on Reddit it shows someone saying what I'm saying, and then someone else responding skeptically, so I suppose you would be more in his shoes:

Web capture_15-7-2021_32938_www.reddit.com.jpeg


I'd attach a larger picture of more of the conversation, but the screen grabber screws up. So you can click here, if you want to keep reading:
After EQ,Beats Solo Pro is the best headphone? : oratory1990 (reddit.com)

--

This is a difference I noticed between the HD 25 and the DT-1350 (as well as the MDR-ZX110): the HD 25 sounds "punchy", with drums having life to them. They hit harder. It's noticeable and probably explains the phones popularity over the years in beat-driven genres.

Web capture_15-7-2021_33241_www.reddit.com.jpeg


I don't think the MDR-Z100 can be EQ'd to have punchy drums like that, no matter what you do to the 80 Hz to 150 Hz regions.
 

phoenixsong

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In the comments on Reddit it shows someone saying what I'm saying, and then someone else responding skeptically, so I suppose you would be more in his shoes:

View attachment 141207

I'd attach a larger picture of more of the conversation, but the screen grabber screws up. So you can click here, if you want to keep reading:
After EQ,Beats Solo Pro is the best headphone? : oratory1990 (reddit.com)

--

This is a difference I noticed between the HD 25 and the DT-1350 (as well as the MDR-ZX110): the HD 25 sounds "punchy", with drums having life to them. They hit harder. It's noticeable and probably explains the phones popularity over the years in beat-driven genres.

View attachment 141209

I don't think the MDR-Z100 can be EQ'd to have punchy drums like that, no matter what you do to the 80 Hz to 150 Hz regions.
Not exactly in his shoes. I mean, simply from the perspective of acoustics and headphone design itself, that line of thought is clearly flawed
 

MayaTlab

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In the comments on Reddit

The one to read is Oratory's. The TLDR is simple : once other nuisance factors are below a certain threshold (THD), FR is the one remaining variable that determines people's appreciation of SQ, and that variable is difficult to control for a particular listener as we'd need to measure the FR of different headphones at this listener's eardrum to equalise them to the same FR for that specific listener... if it is possible (cf. caveats listed above).

I have very little doubts that I would not be able in practice to EQ the Sony MDR-ZX110 to my satisfaction given the aforementioned caveats. But two well engineered headphones that don't suffer from the problems above (high Q resonances / nulls, poor channel matching, low seatings / positional variation, etc.), if I were to get a truly representative measurement of their respective FR at my eardrum, probably.
 

stalepie2

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The one to read is Oratory's. The TLDR is simple : once other nuisance factors are below a certain threshold (THD), FR is the one remaining variable that determines people's appreciation of SQ, and that variable is difficult to control for a particular listener as we'd need to measure the FR of different headphones at this listener's eardrum to equalise them to the same FR for that specific listener... if it is possible (cf. caveats listed above).

I have very little doubts that I would not be able in practice to EQ the Sony MDR-ZX110 to my satisfaction given the aforementioned caveats. But two well engineered headphones that don't suffer from the problems above (high Q resonances / nulls, poor channel matching, low seatings / positional variation, etc.), if I were to get a truly representative measurement of their respective FR at my eardrum, probably.

I read one of his long responses and he completely missed the point of what the person was asking, but nonetheless got a lot of upvotes anyway.
 

MayaTlab

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I read one of his long responses and he completely missed the point of what the person was asking, but nonetheless got a lot of upvotes anyway.

He didn't.

Question 1 : "If three speakers have the same frequency response graph, but one is a dynamic driver, one is a planar magnetic driver, and one is an electrostatic driver, they will all sound the same?"

Answer's TLDR : If they really have it at one listener's eardrum, then yes they will all sound the same to that specific listener.

Question 2 ("If that's true what is speaker fidelity, resolution, detail, etc.?") logically becomes a moot point after answering question 1, or rather becomes a question for terminologists, not acousticians :D.
 

milotrain

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If you have any doubts about EQ matching a pair of headphones, put pink noise up in a pair of headphones you own, with an EQ on the L and R channels (separate) and try to match the L to the R with the EQ. You'll very rapidly realize that it is folly.
 

uwotm8

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If they really have it at one listener's eardrum, then yes
So the answer - for the real world speakers/phones - is "NO", same as expected;)

None of my EQd phones sounded the same or even really close to another one BUT the overall tonality (the only thing you can fix with EQ really) was matching well enough
 

stalepie2

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He didn't.

Question 1 : "If three speakers have the same frequency response graph, but one is a dynamic driver, one is a planar magnetic driver, and one is an electrostatic driver, they will all sound the same?"

Answer's TLDR : If they really have it at one listener's eardrum, then yes they will all sound the same to that specific listener.

Question 2 ("If that's true what is speaker fidelity, resolution, detail, etc.?") logically becomes a moot point after answering question 1, or rather becomes a question for terminologists, not acousticians :D.

I don't really follow.

Another aspect that seems independent of frequency response is instrument separation. Some headphones do this better than others. I don't find that a headphone with poor instrument separation sounds better if I turn down the bass or turn up the treble. I mean, yes, I hear more treble then, but that's just making the treble I already heard louder. I can do the same by turning up the volume knob in general.
 

Flow

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And I don't think headphones sound the same once they're equalized to sound flat. There are many other differences besides the frequency response, such as the kind of headphone it is (in-ear, over-ear, open-back, on-ear, closed), questions about whether planar, electrostatic, dynamic, multi-driver and balanced armature can all really sound the same, and the various damping techniques, the designs of the drivers themselves, and the cups and pads. So many things have an effect on the sound. Yet people seem to think that if you just adjust the frequency response it all sounds the same between every headphone.

How do these differences affect what we hear at the ear without affecting the frequency response?
 

MayaTlab

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Another aspect that seems independent of frequency response is instrument separation. Some headphones do this better than others. I don't find that a headphone with poor instrument separation sounds better if I turn down the bass or turn up the treble. I mean, yes, I hear more treble then, but that's just making the treble I already heard louder. I can do the same by turning up the volume knob in general.

This is nowhere near the degree of equalisation precision you need to address how different headphones' FR measure at your own eardrum :D.

So the answer - for the real world speakers/phones - is "NO", same as expected;)

None of my EQd phones sounded the same or even really close to another one BUT the overall tonality (the only thing you can fix with EQ really) was matching well enough

Yep, in practice it's very difficult to do :D. I don't think there is any consumer-friendly way to get an idea of what the FR at your drum of two headphones really is like above 800Hz.

Below 800Hz or so it's actually fairly cheap if you're dedicated to learn how to use softwares such as REW and a little bit methodical. You can use simple in-concha electrets such as these ones : https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2

This should provide fairly decent comparative results.

Now you'll have to ask for an acoustician for the exact reason why that's valid but I believe that terms such as "wavelength" would appear in their response. From what I understand at these frequencies the headphones are operating for certain under pressure conditions, ie the measured dB at any point in the volume between your drum and the driver is the same. This is the same principle that's used by ANC headphones with a feedback mechanism.

Above it gets really complicated.

You can purchase this : https://www.etymotic.com/product/er-7c/
But the sole act of purchasing it is not enough, you'll have to learn how to use it (big problem n°1), and characterise the limits of its accuracy / precision (big problem n°2).

You can make your own DIY version of it (which in some ways is actually better than the original, particularly for measuring headphones as the ER7C's silicone tubing and large microphone housing may pose fitting issues, and in many ways is worse than the ER7C, particularly for questions of absolute values accuracy) : https://ibb.co/yPC3zDG
Based on a David Griesinger's idea : http://www.davidgriesinger.com
Jut be warned that this is absolutely not for the unmotivated as you'll encounter a lot of obstacles along the way and you'll need to be quite methodical to properly build, calibrate and operate the probe and characterise what's in your hand to not over-interpret the results you'll be getting.

Measurements done at the entrance of the ear canal with small electrets may also be useful for comparative evaluations. Most studies on the transfer function between blocked ear canal entrance measurements and measurements near the eardrum show a decent but rarely exact match, and it's difficult to determine whether the remaining differences are tangible or an artefact of the experimental process. Example here, where it matched well for one individual but not superbly well for another (figure 5) : https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5992802#free-full-text (that's with speakers though, maybe there are some differences with headphones in that regard).

Personally I use all three methods simultaneously when measuring headphones on my head these days as my confidence in each of them depends on the area of the spectrum.

In most circumstances it's probably still a better idea to start with something that you already enjoy and fine-tune it. I am skeptical that the Sony MDRZX110 is a good starting point for most of us :D.
 
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stalepie2

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How do these differences affect what we hear at the ear without affecting the frequency response?
I don't know, but does the frequency response only reflect the loudness of the spectrum of the sound, and not the quality of it? Aren't there at least innate differences of the sound that are going to come from the physical design of the headphone (like in-ear monitor versus over-ear open-back? ) I just find it very hard to believe that every headphone can be EQed to sound the same. If that is the case, why do engineers even try to come up with new designs and new drivers? why do they do research? Why didn't it stop in the early days of headphone drivers? A company can save money by not doing more research. They could fire a lot of their employees and keep using drivers they developed in the 60s or earlier. Admittedly, Beyer releases new versions of the 880 line and Koss releases new versions of the Portapro driver, i think (the KPH30i). Those came from the 1980s.
 

MayaTlab

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I just find it very hard to believe that every headphone can be EQed to sound the same.

As already said, that is not the case, for perfectly measurable reasons (high Q peaks / nulls, poor channel matching, seatings to seatings inconsistencies, etc.).
Some headphones, even fairly cheap ones, avoid these problems for the most part and are a good basis for extensive EQing (HD6XX for example).
Most don't, even some TOTL headphones.

If that is the case, why do engineers even try to come up with new designs and new drivers? why do they do research? Why didn't it stop in the early days of headphone drivers? A company can save money by not doing more research. They could fire a lot of their employees and keep using drivers they developed in the 60s or earlier.

A lot of the research that's been going on lately is about "what should a pair of headphones sound like to sound right to most people ?". It doesn't seem that much of the industry has heard the memo yet apparently as we're still routinely getting headphones with dog sh*t FR.

I would think that there are plenty of reasons to remain innovative with headphones design, but you'll have to ask an acoustic engineer for these reasons.
Perhaps newer driver / frame designs are a necessity to reach the goals determined by the aforementioned studies.

But perhaps more practical reasons exist as well. I would presume, for example, that even simply packaging reasons may sometimes be an impetus : https://www.gearpatrol.com/tech/audio/a594565/bose-noise-cancelling-headphones-700-interview/
"We needed to develop a whole new speaker driver, in order to not violate the goals of the industrial design, and it needed to be smaller in diameter."
The teardown here makes it apparent why : https://www.52audio.com/archives/31642.html
 
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DeepFried

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I don't know, but does the frequency response only reflect the loudness of the spectrum of the sound, and not the quality of it? ...

Thats my understanding. Even taking a simple view without thinking about it too much there are clear differences between headphones that aren't the FR, such as distortion at different SPLs and decay (CSD)... i'm assuming these things affect the quality of the sound at an audible level. I'm sure we could find other characteristics that are audible if we put some effort into it.

FR is generally given too much importance I think, so long as its not offensivly bad then i'd rank other characteristincs like wear comfort to be much more important. Especially if you're applying DSP.
 

MayaTlab

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Thats my understanding. Even taking a simple view without thinking about it too much there are clear differences between headphones that aren't the FR,

How can you be certain that it's not FR as in all likelihood it's a variable that isn't controlled well enough at your eardrum ? That's the entire problem.

such as distortion at different SPLs

Article in free access on the subject : https://www.listeninc.com/the-corre...bility-and-listener-preference-in-headphones/
(right click, save as)
There are quite a few others on the subject.
 

DeepFried

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How can you be certain that it's not FR as in all likelihood it's a variable that isn't controlled well enough at your eardrum ? That's the entire problem.

you're referring to preference? I think thats a different and more complex question. averaged preference rating is less useful to me as an individual I think than it is to a manufacturerer.

Article in free access on the subject : https://www.listeninc.com/the-corre...bility-and-listener-preference-in-headphones/
(right click, save as)
There are quite a few others on the subject.

OK so this, somewhat under powered study, which looks at broad preference rather than actual audible diferences, shows first that yes distortion can have a significant impact on preference (sample D was clearly not preferred). Reading between the lines however, the much more interesting and unsurprising result is that there are clear audible differences between the headphones even when they are EQ'd to target. This demonstrates that FR is not the only important factor in quality, even if quality doesn't always have a clear impact on preference.
 

MayaTlab

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you're referring to preference?

Nope. As already said, that the likelihood that two different headphone can ever have the exact same FR (below threshold of audibility) at your own eardrum is very low without going through a lot of efforts.

Therefore, since it remains an uncontrolled variable, you can’t attribute to another the cause of what you’re hearing.
 
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