7.1.4 setup, Genelec vs KEF

[juliangst]

Then think about 2 ceiling speakers! There is a good video from Lars about that. Absolutely most films only send 2 ceiling channels, they don't code for 4 speakers. With 2 speakers sending the same signal you have interferences. It's needed with bigger audiences but I will stick with 2 for sure (also a couch).

I'm not sure about movies but with atmos music there is a lot of different information that goes to the front atmos channels and the rear atmos channels

 

[test1223]

I really dont know how good the in wall speakers B&W offers are, the normal home speakers are more like design objects than good speakers in my opinion. Sure, THD, intermodulation and even FR are good in some models, the separated tweeter kills the performance. In room response will be different in every room, compared to Genelec or KEF they are still in the stone ange. (in my opinion)

B&W got constantly hate here because of its not completely neutral sounding but the speakers and also its sounding can have also a lot to offer and I would recommend to listen to some of these speakers. I liked a lot some of their top line speakers but hated some of the lower range speakers. When you "hear through the sounding" you can hear the quality of the drivers and cabinet which also all haters admit.

Typical coax speakers also have their disadvantages like a small soundstage and lack of wide high frequency beam which often prevents good envelopment which is the feelings of being surrounded by the sound.

I personally like coax speakers a lot but also miss some incredible things other speakers offer. You can't get everything maxed out at the same time.

 

[Keksstein]

I'm pretty impressed how bad those in wall speakers Erin has measured are... Even not linear FR on axis. KEF and Revel seems to be the best, but compare the FR with the KEF R3 Meta ich is even Cheaper.

Not sure how the in wall KEF Reference will perform, I found a single measurement of the FR, really nice, but Perlisten seems to have better offers. S5i-LR measures not bad, only issue is the price. 7 of them cost already 90.000€ which is insane. Perhaps there will be measurements for the KEF next year when I want to buy the stuff.

Edit: Completely wrong, I have seen the prices for pairs. They are much cheaper than the KEF Reference and seem to be really great. This setup would be possible for the same price the Genelec will cost, its really an option.

Accuton has really expensive but also really good drivers, not sure if it will be enough to place them (more or less) in a simple cabinet like Takeoffmedia is doing. Also for distances > 3m, I guess the tweeter will be unhappy if you want the speaker to be loud.

The 7x KH420 are just for comparing the price difference. Something like 3x KH420 and 4x KH310 would be a more realistic choice, the distance to the rear speakers is <2m
I also think building the woofers is the best way to go. This is no rocket science, it depends on the person who is planing the acoustics. Of course there is a risk for them because they can not calculate the sound quality compared to a normal purchasable unit. Lets see.
The KH750 has one big benefit, the electronics can be mounted far away which makes integrating them easier. Also they are compact, if you use a few this could work well. But if you build the woofers by yourself, a really premium 12” driver will cost you ~300€.

All B&W Speakers I have heard where disappointing to me. I know many people love their in house sound, I have my troubles with the tweeter. I have heard the big 800 D3 on incredible expensive Accuphase components, the preamp alone was worth over 30.000€ Room was really good, the speakers did not perform so well in my opinion.

Best regards,
Jan

 

[Axo1989]

As an inspiration you can have a look at the room of the SE music lab https://www.semusiclab.com/lab
Here you see how an almost perfect 3d audio room looks like. Of cause you almost certainly will not build something similar, but you should be aware that the integration of the speakers and room acoustics is much more important than the decision if you use Genelec or Kef speakers.

I'm not usually surprised by studio shots, but that one is something.

 

[juliangst]

I also think building the woofers is the best way to go

This is definitely the way to go. Genelec or Neumann subs are incredibly overpriced. The KH750 is 1500€ for a single 10" while you can easily get a Dayton 18" for half the price.
It's also good to have all the electronics like speaker and sub amps in one place.

Just compared the R3 Meta to the Ci3160RL and they measure pretty much the same except for that bass bump.

 

[Vacceo]

I'm not sure about movies but with atmos music there is a lot of different information that goes to the front atmos channels and the rear atmos channels

Videogames also make good use of height channels. Speaking of which, I´d definetly go for the AV10 if only, due to the HDMI 2.1 ports.

 

[IamJF]

I'm not sure about movies but with atmos music there is a lot of different information that goes to the front atmos channels and the rear atmos channels

Do you know some good examples? Is there high quality material of interesting music available?
But this will come for sure and reverb algorithms will probably use all of the channels, that's very possible!

@test1223 - wide high frequency beam is one of the great things of KEF coaxes! They are actually wider as many normal speakers. The feeling of being surrounded by the sound with a 7.1.4 system ... doesn't need to come from reflection smearing, you have enough speaker for that ;-). So I would prefer a precise reproduction and controlled acoustics.

@Keksstein For real high power and wide dispersion you would use Bliesma T34A or T34B. These will be louder and with less compression as all the tweeters you have in the speakers you think about. I went the compression driver way in my cinema and found very nice units with no resonances up to 20kHz and smooth, "soft" sound (cause I have my listening room for analytic/"real" listening).
T34B can even be used with a waveguide, T34A is for very wide and even radiation up to very high frequencies. You can combine that with M74 and put a few 12" underneath. For a freestanding "endgame" speaker I would use 4 (2 on the backside), for on/inwall 2. With a wavegudie you could also use a PHL Midrange driver but there are not many which can do that SPL level.
I use such a concept for a custom speaker with a smaller tweeter for a measurement speaker to measure microphones. They need 120dBSpl at 1kHz and measurements down to 16Hz. And I will also upgrade my main monitors in a similar setup.

That's the best speaker material availiable. Add Hypex or four audio electronics and someone who knows how to do the crossover and chassis (which is easier for in wall setups but different for hard frontwall oder soft soffit!) ... and you can configure the speaker you like to have.
But when starting such a project you first have to decide - wide radiation or controlled radiation (= wave guide or horn).
Btw - if you don't like B&W sound these Beryllium tweeters are very likely your thing.

Neumann - after what I experienced with the upgrade KH120 -> KH120ii I really see (and hear!) a big benefit of the digital versions! There will be an update of KH310 in the near future but KH420 will take them a while (at least what you find online on information).
I listened to KH120ii next to my main speakers which was very nice. But after calibration with MA-1 ... this was way to close. Of course you don't have the resolution of the midrange dome and the "relaxedness" of the Berylliumtweeters - but it was very transparent with a hint of "truth", I could totally mix and master with KH120ii and a woofer. (mixing also without woofer).
So in 2-3m distance a simple setup of KH120ii and KH150, calibrated with MA-1 (Atmos update should come anytime ... at least till next summer ;-)) and a dual bass array ... of course it's to cheap for your plans but this is the perfect price/performance base for Atmos in my opinion.

You found my thread about SB Acoustic Woofers? ScanSpeak is also always great but costs a little more.
Go at LEAST for a single bass array! This is easy to integrate in a complete home cinema build. And has a lot of benefits. 6-8x SB34NRXL75-8 for example will do some serious impact ...
You could also think about bass shakers. I will install the Visaton units when my new couch arrives. The secret is the right filtering (they often have a strong resonance), low crossover and a LOW level! It's not a massage chair, it's just to feel these explosions even better. Had a testrun and it was really fun, expecially for gaming this should be cool.

 

[holdingpants01]

Do you know some good examples? Is there high quality material of interesting music available?

Check out the Kraftwerk 3-D: Der Katalog, it's as flashy in things flying around overhead as it gets, while still musically interesting, but you have to use speakers rather than headphones

 

[test1223]

@test1223 - wide high frequency beam is one of the great things of KEF coaxes! They are actually wider as many normal speakers. The feeling of being surrounded by the sound with a 7.1.4 system ... doesn't need to come from reflection smearing, you have enough speaker for that ;-). So I would prefer a precise reproduction and controlled acoustics.

KEF have a di of about 8.5dB and wide beam speakers like Revel have a di of about 6.5dB which is a bigger difference in di.

The envelopment from a 3D audio set-up with no room reflections isn't great at all, while very good speakers and room acoustics of even a stereo system provides very good envelopment. Because of that the blackbird studio and many others built their multi channel rooms around diffusion https://blackbirdstudio.com/.

Most of the people never have experienced a system with good envelopment because it is very hard to achieve.

 

[Ciobi69]

Do you know some good examples? Is there high quality material of interesting music available?
But this will come for sure and reverb algorithms will probably use all of the channels, that's very possible!

@test1223 - wide high frequency beam is one of the great things of KEF coaxes! They are actually wider as many normal speakers. The feeling of being surrounded by the sound with a 7.1.4 system ... doesn't need to come from reflection smearing, you have enough speaker for that ;-). So I would prefer a precise reproduction and controlled acoustics.

@Keksstein For real high power and wide dispersion you would use Bliesma T34A or T34B. These will be louder and with less compression as all the tweeters you have in the speakers you think about. I went the compression driver way in my cinema and found very nice units with no resonances up to 20kHz and smooth, "soft" sound (cause I have my listening room for analytic/"real" listening).
T34B can even be used with a waveguide, T34A is for very wide and even radiation up to very high frequencies. You can combine that with M74 and put a few 12" underneath. For a freestanding "endgame" speaker I would use 4 (2 on the backside), for on/inwall 2. With a wavegudie you could also use a PHL Midrange driver but there are not many which can do that SPL level.
I use such a concept for a custom speaker with a smaller tweeter for a measurement speaker to measure microphones. They need 120dBSpl at 1kHz and measurements down to 16Hz. And I will also upgrade my main monitors in a similar setup.
View attachment 316065
That's the best speaker material availiable. Add Hypex or four audio electronics and someone who knows how to do the crossover and chassis (which is easier for in wall setups but different for hard frontwall oder soft soffit!) ... and you can configure the speaker you like to have.
But when starting such a project you first have to decide - wide radiation or controlled radiation (= wave guide or horn).
Btw - if you don't like B&W sound these Beryllium tweeters are very likely your thing.

Neumann - after what I experienced with the upgrade KH120 -> KH120ii I really see (and hear!) a big benefit of the digital versions! There will be an update of KH310 in the near future but KH420 will take them a while (at least what you find online on information).
I listened to KH120ii next to my main speakers which was very nice. But after calibration with MA-1 ... this was way to close. Of course you don't have the resolution of the midrange dome and the "relaxedness" of the Berylliumtweeters - but it was very transparent with a hint of "truth", I could totally mix and master with KH120ii and a woofer. (mixing also without woofer).
So in 2-3m distance a simple setup of KH120ii and KH150, calibrated with MA-1 (Atmos update should come anytime ... at least till next summer ;-)) and a dual bass array ... of course it's to cheap for your plans but this is the perfect price/performance base for Atmos in my opinion.

You found my thread about SB Acoustic Woofers? ScanSpeak is also always great but costs a little more.
Go at LEAST for a single bass array! This is easy to integrate in a complete home cinema build. And has a lot of benefits. 6-8x SB34NRXL75-8 for example will do some serious impact ...
You could also think about bass shakers. I will install the Visaton units when my new couch arrives. The secret is the right filtering (they often have a strong resonance), low crossover and a LOW level! It's not a massage chair, it's just to feel these explosions even better. Had a testrun and it was really fun, expecially for gaming this should be cool.

awesome speakers man, i saw a project made by a guy that replicated the neumann kh420, i mean not exactly a replica but he used bliesma drivers, and the measurements were amazing

 

[Keksstein]

For real high power and wide dispersion you would use Bliesma T34A or T34B. These will be louder and with less compression as all the tweeters you have in the speakers you think about. I went the compression driver way in my cinema and found very nice units with no resonances up to 20kHz and smooth, "soft" sound (cause I have my listening room for analytic/"real" listening).
T34B can even be used with a waveguide, T34A is for very wide and even radiation up to very high frequencies. You can combine that with M74 and put a few 12" underneath. For a freestanding "endgame" speaker I would use 4 (2 on the backside), for on/inwall 2. With a wavegudie you could also use a PHL Midrange driver but there are not many which can do that SPL level.

That's the best speaker material availiable. Add Hypex or four audio electronics and someone who knows how to do the crossover and chassis (which is easier for in wall setups but different for hard frontwall oder soft soffit!) ... and you can configure the speaker you like to have.
But when starting such a project you first have to decide - wide radiation or controlled radiation (= wave guide or horn).
Btw - if you don't like B&W sound these Beryllium tweeters are very likely your thing.

You found my thread about SB Acoustic Woofers?

I guess my skills are not high enough to build a speaker like this, it would also be hard to find someone who will do the fine adjustment with the drivers. I start to really like to integrate the speakers directly in the wall,

By looking at the drivers, I really ask myself if Perlisten is perhaps buying Bliesma drivers. There are not so much manufacturers of beryllium tweeters, Focal and Scan Speak drivers do look much different. The LF driver is probably something from the SB Acoustics Satori series. Could be the best choise if DIY is no option.

I already have 4 Scan Speak 30W4558 Woofers that I could use, buying more is of course not an issue

Best regards,
Jan

 

[lashto]

Not sure why everyone is so against the in-ceiling/wall speakers. Yes, there are lots of bad ones but the ASR tested KEF was actually very good.
Very good horizontal and vertical directivity (which is probably the most important measurement for atmos/ceiling speakers) and very good distortion & everything else. The FR has a few 'humps' but those are easily fixed by any room correction.
Those in-wall KEFs can also be used as surrounds. Excellent performance/measurements and in terms of install-effort/ergonomics/looks, these are way better than hanging whatever other boxes from the walls.

Even the L-C-R can be in-wall, the new KEF tri-axials look like a very good solution. A 100% in-wall solution may just be the best for such a not-so-big room. And I do not see any SQ compromises with the in-wall KEFs.


P.S.
otherwise, in terms of 'boxes', I would prefer Neumann to Genelec: better/local support, may be cheaper, DSP may be better. And since you are in Germany @Keksstein, it's probably worth having a look at Geithain too: high praise everywhere, you can just go visit their factory/showroom.

 

[juliangst]

Even the L-C-R can be in-wall, the new KEF tri-axials look like a very good solution

I think you would definitely need EQ with them. The Kef ceiling speakers are tuned to be flat at 45° and therefore have elevated treble on axis.

 

[IamJF]

Perlisten - Bliesma only has 25mm tweeters - for a good reason. I found this picture (do you have more?) - that's not a Bliesma: https://www.perlistenaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/R2ic_Side.png
Their Textreme filler driver hints to SB Acoustics - but they say 29mm.

 

[IamJF]

I guess my skills are not high enough to build a speaker like this, it would also be hard to find someone who will do the fine adjustment with the drivers. I start to really like to integrate the speakers directly in the wall,

I'm doing neearly the same speakers for my studio and a colleague also is interested to some for his home cinema.

By looking at the drivers, I really ask myself if Perlisten is perhaps buying Bliesma drivers. There are not so much manufacturers of beryllium tweeters, Focal and Scan Speak drivers do look much different. The LF driver is probably something from the SB Acoustics Satori series. Could be the best choise if DIY is no option.

The LF drivers are pretty sure Satoris. They are great from 80-100Hz upwards but at low frequencies ScanSpeak and of course Purify are often better. So they are perfect for home cinema speakers ;-)

I already have 4 Scan Speak 30W4558 Woofers that I could use, buying more is of course not an issue

That's perfect. Get 4 more and try if that's enough.
You can use something like a Crown Xti for your testing and further down the road change to something more high end if needed. https://www.thomann.de/at/crown_xti_2002.htm

 

[juliangst]

Perlisten - Bliesma only has 25mm tweeters - for a good reason. I found this picture (do you have more?) - that's not a Bliesma: https://www.perlistenaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/R2ic_Side.png
Their Textreme filler driver hints to SB Acoustics - but they say 29mm.

Or they just use in house drivers instead of third party drivers

 

[lashto]

I think you would definitely need EQ with them. The Kef ceiling speakers are tuned to be flat at 45° and therefore have elevated treble on axis.

hard to say from such a low-res graph but the triaxial-250 driver seems flatter than the in-ceiling coaxial-200 measured on ASR. The triaxial-250 looks more like a front/in-wall speaker (at least to me).
In any case, I do not see a problem/disandvatage in your "definitely need EQ" conclusion: it's an Atmos room, EQ/DSP is a must have anyway. Especially for such a size-constrained room.

 

[lashto]

next year I will be able to create my own home cinema/ music listening room in the basement, room is big (enough) and symmetrical. Around 27m2 / 290 square feet.
...
(R3 is to big for the ceiling, room is only 2,2m/7,22ft high)

Talking about possible issues, the specified room dimensions look like a serious one to me:

• WxL is an ~quadratic 5x5m and not good for acoustics. But IIUC, at least one wall is still 'flexible'.
• 2,2m/7,22ft height is quite far from 'ideal'.

Not sure if "excellent sound" is possible in such a room ... no matter how much money/electronics one pours into it.

Before you start spending top$ @Keksstein, you may wanna talk to some acoustic expert(s). And I wouldn't mention the budget at first: some may happily take your money and promise "amazing sound" even if it's (physically) impossible.
Two videos to start: ceiling impact and more generally about room volume. Sorry if those do not sound very encouraging, hope you do find some solutions

 

[IamJF]

You can do great acoustics in small rooms - but you can't do ANY acoustics in a small room. For e.g. there are different concepts for listening rooms:

The SOS Guide To Control Room Design

Getting the sound in your mix space right is crucial. But what is ‘right’, and how do you achieve it?

www.soundonsound.com

You can't achieve a good liveroom with 2,2m ceiling height - reflections come to early. Also a reflection free zone is hard/impossible to achieve when you want a higher reverb time. That's the reason a "classic" acoustician will tell you the room is bad (and it is of course) and give up (which I don't of course ).

But you can combine a stongly dampened room with a sub array. Probably not for a living room but in a special home cinema room that's a good way to go. And the only way in a small room to get controlled acoustics.

 

[juliangst]

Talking about possible issues, the specified room dimensions look like a serious one to me:

• WxL is an ~quadratic 5x5m and not good for acoustics. But IIUC, at least one wall is still 'flexible'.
• 2,2m/7,22ft height is quite far from 'ideal'.

Not sure if "excellent sound" is possible in such a room ... no matter how much money/electronics one pours into it.

Before you start spending top$ @Keksstein, you may wanna talk to some acoustic expert(s). And I wouldn't mention the budget at first: some may happily take your money and promise "amazing sound" even if it's not (physically) possible.
Two videos samples to start: ceiling impact and more generally about room volume. Sorry if those do not sound very encouraging, hope you do find some solutions

The main problem with small rooms is bass.
But you can achieve great results with a 4 subwoofer SBA or 8 subwoofer DBA.
A large ceiling absorber thats 10-20cm can also help a lot.

This way you shouldn’t get any significant bass resonances