$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[subframe]

What did you compare the 328 to? The only same room comparisons I was able to make was against the Salon 2, 228be and Perlisten S7t. The Salon 2 was the overall best to my ears (by a fairly large margin).

I didn’t realize you had auditioned the S7t. Being able to compare to the Revels must have been quite interesting! Can you share your impressions (or link to your post about it, I couldn’t find it with a quick search)?

 

[petezapie]

What did you compare the 328 to? The only same room comparisons I was able to make was against the Salon 2, 228be and Perlisten S7t. The Salon 2 was the overall best to my ears (by a fairly large margin).

We discussed this back on page 87. In addition to the sonus faber Amati Tradition, which i ended up buying (for a ridiculous great price) after selling the 328’s, i compared them to my Revel f52’s and preferred some but not all of the characteristics of the older f52 against the 328’s. I was able to do these all in the same room, in home, no sales pressures with all the time i needed. What i find interesting is that while there is always bias in this process, i came into the buying decision as longtime revel fan owning the f52’s, bought the 328’s fully expecting to have them smoke the SF’s based on all the hype, but it was undeniable to me the SF’s were simply in another league, what a fun and sinking feeling finding something you clearly prefer with no ambiguity but also realize at the same time you need to sell the 328’s you just bought! I truly feel for anyone going through this process because in retrospect i could never have listened to all the speakers in the same room i would be interested in and picking one would be a bit of a crapshoot otherwise.

 

[benanders]

@Newman OK, finally getting to your request, so sorry for delay. Between my work and this thread going down the crapper for couple days, took me a bit to come back to it.

So, the shortlist as it stands today, in no particular order ...

KEF Blade Meta (haven't heard them yet, but want to!)
Clarysis Minuet/Studio Plus
Diptyque Reference
Legacy V System
Legacy Aeris
Salon 2 (hey, ya never know)
Soundfield
D&D 12C (supposed name of the unreleased 8C big brother)

Soundfield is in the proverbial lead right now, and I would be surprised if I don't go this direction, but not 100% decided yet.

Hope this is helpful for you

Of those models, were any demo’ed with HT?
Push any action trailers through the Soundfields yet?

 

[Adi777]

Thank you for providing link to this thread. The domestic speaker companies I’m familiar with started in a “garage”.

What about it? Or maybe OP SHOULD only buy loudspeakers from well-known brand names, because? Good question, because what? Small, less/little-known manufactures must sound worse?

 

[Sokel]

What about it? Or maybe OP SHOULD only buy loudspeakers from well-known brand names, because? Good question, because what? Small, less/little-known manufactures must sound worse?

It only comes down to testing equipment (or having access to third party ones,preferably independent).
Which are no cheap,it needs more than Amir's Klippel,etc.

Other than that some credentials wouldn't hurt or at least some well established previous designs and above all a foreseeable future as stuff may need some service down the road.
Beta testers are either friends or people who shouldn't have to pay for it,that's how investements goes and that's how reputation builds to confidence.

 

[MKR]

I didn’t realize you had auditioned the S7t. Being able to compare to the Revels must have been quite interesting! Can you share your impressions (or link to your post about it, I couldn’t find it with a quick search)?

Yea, it was great to be able to hear all of these speakers side by side. My impressions as I recall (been a while) …

S7t - This is truly an excellent design. Really no major flaws. Very good imaging, dynamics, and detail. But more narrow dispersion, which I do not care for. In addition, the tweet/mid is positioned quite low which resulted in the performers in the recording always being strangely “short” in stature. A bit of an odd effect. I heard this on every occasion I auditioned the S7t (auditioned them in more than one venue and system). But again a very well engineered loudspeaker.

228be/328be - Again, excellent. Overall, preferred these to Perlisten, more my type of sound (mainly, large soundstage and holographic).

Salon 2 - For my ears, this is a very special loudspeaker. Does not measure quite as well as the Perlisten and 228/328, but the music that comes out of these is truly intoxicating and for me, there really are no weaknesses. I have bloviated ad nauseam on this thread about my Salon 2 impressions, so won’t do it again here as I am a sure folks are tired of reading it, but this was my end game and almost pulled the trigger. But, between the doubt inserted in my mind after hearing the Legacy (and now additional designs, see just previous mentioned short list), and the fact that they are now discontinued, resulted in me hitting the pause button on the Salons.

All the above are examples of outstanding loudspeaker engineering, and you really can’t go wrong with any of them, really comes down to personal preference.

 

[MKR]

Of those models, were any demo’ed with HT?
Push any action trailers through the Soundfields yet?

Yes, the Legacy, Salon 2, and Soundfield. Not watched an actual movie, but I have some tortuous movie soundtracks that I use in my demo list, especially a couple from Gladiator and Dune. They all perform very well, but if I had to choose, probably give the edge in dynamics to the Soundfield, which is one of the most critical aspects for movies (for me anyway)

 

[MKR]

We discussed this back on page 87. In addition to the sonus faber Amati Tradition, which i ended up buying (for a ridiculous great price) after selling the 328’s, i compared them to my Revel f52’s and preferred some but not all of the characteristics of the older f52 against the 328’s. I was able to do these all in the same room, in home, no sales pressures with all the time i needed. What i find interesting is that while there is always bias in this process, i came into the buying decision as longtime revel fan owning the f52’s, bought the 328’s fully expecting to have them smoke the SF’s based on all the hype, but it was undeniable to me the SF’s were simply in another league, what a fun and sinking feeling finding something you clearly prefer with no ambiguity but also realize at the same time you need to sell the 328’s you just bought! I truly feel for anyone going through this process because in retrospect i could never have listened to all the speakers in the same room i would be interested in and picking one would be a bit of a crapshoot otherwise.

Ah yes, that’s right! Now I recall. Even I am losing track of what has been discussed in this now very long thread

Thanks for sharing (again)

 

[benanders]

Yes, the Legacy, Salon 2, and Soundfield. Not watched an actual movie, but I have some tortuous movie soundtracks that I use in my demo list, especially a couple from Gladiator and Dune. They all perform very well, but if I had to choose, probably give the edge in dynamics to the Soundfield, which is one of the most critical aspects for movies (for me anyway)

I surely don’t mean offense @MKR , but that’s not sampling HT, that’s sampling soundtrack music.
Those music sources were just as likely studio down-mixed to stereo from whatever multi-channel format the movie was distributed with, as they were studio up-mixed for multi-channel theater from an original stereo recording. It would depend on each individual original recording, I guess.
In either case, a soundtrack music source won’t have the complexity of music x special effects taxing drivers simultaneously. Those might be important differences, especially if you prioritize dynamics.

What would the plans for center / surrounds be with some of the more recent even-less-mainstream competition be? That was discussed some time ago, but the playing field seems to have changed a bit during the interim.
Mind you I’m personally satisfied to have everything HT crudely down-mixed in-house to stereo (supported by stereo subs). Multi-channel is more of a room-layout commitment than I want, so I’ve got nothing but support for a nice pair of speakers doing emulating full “HT” duty. Could be an issue for those of ya’s wanting the ceiling/back wall spatial cues of 5, 7, 9+ channels, though. The Trinnov’s you spoke well of sure have the ability to pull more sophisticated duties than managing L / R stereo. Seems worth considering.

 

[MKR]

I surely don’t mean offense @MKR , but that’s not sampling HT, that’s sampling soundtrack music.
Those music sources were just as likely studio down-mixed to stereo from whatever multi-channel format the movie was distributed with, as they were studio up-mixed for multi-channel theater from an original stereo recording. It would depend on each individual original recording, I guess.
In either case, a soundtrack music source won’t have the complexity of music x special effects taxing drivers simultaneously. Those might be important differences, especially if you prioritize dynamics.

What would the plans for center / surrounds be with some of the more recent even-less-mainstream competition be? That was discussed some time ago, but the playing field seems to have changed a bit during the interim.
Mind you I’m personally satisfied to have everything HT crudely down-mixed in-house to stereo (supported by stereo subs). Multi-channel is more of a room-layout commitment than I want, so I’ve got nothing but support for a nice pair of speakers doing emulating full “HT” duty. Could be an issue for those of ya’s wanting the ceiling/back wall spatial cues of 5, 7, 9+ channels, though. The Trinnov’s you spoke well of sure have the ability to pull more sophisticated duties than managing L / R stereo. Seems worth considering.

@benanders No offense taken, fully understand and agree with your comments. I actually plan to try out a movie or two this weekend to check exactly what you have suggested. Keep ya posted on that.

As to plans for multi-ch system, if you recall I was originally planning for 2ch only, even for HT (then phantom for a center) but as many of you have rightly explained to me these past months, that would be dumb . So, indeed I will be going with at least a 5ch system, maybe 7 (I think more than that starts to become silly). And indeed, for some of my choices that may be problematic. At least for Soundfield though they also design custom centers, sides, rears, subs, etc, so that is no issue. For the planars on my short list, most definitely an issue (mainly I refer to the center channel).

And yes, Trinnov or Storm still on the radar

 

[benanders]

@benanders No offense taken, fully understand and agree with your comments. I actually plan to try out a movie or two this weekend to check exactly what you have suggested. Keep ya posted on that.

As to plans for multi-ch system, if you recall I was originally planning for 2ch only, even for HT (then phantom for a center) but as many of you have rightly explained to me these past months, that would be dumb . So, indeed I will be going with at least a 5ch system, maybe 7 (I think more than that starts to become silly). And indeed, for some of my choices that may be problematic. At least for Soundfield though they also design custom centers, sides, rears, subs, etc, so that is no issue. For the planars on my short list, most definitely an issue (mainly I refer to the center channel).

And yes, Trinnov or Storm still on the radar

I agree with you in a dedicated listening room that’ll serve HT, even a modest 5.1 system should top a stereo approach (given the same L / R model), unless you already have very good upstream kit for the required down-mixing of multi-channel ( = almost all post-VHS-era multimedia) movie audio (…and even then…).

Planars, HT, center channel, yeah… that’s area beyond my limited experience and past my pay grade…
Reckless prediction would suggest if you can’t procure 3x planars ( L-C-R ) and prepare for issues integrating C x subwoofer(s) for satisfaction with male voices, move along, please. But I’m not among those who’ve tried.

Helpful that your Soundfield option offers satellites, though that does up the gamble on speaker survivability. Any operation that’s limited in size is probably using OEM parts that might not be manufactured specific to their application(s), meaning they could go OOP at any time and potentially without warning. Never mind a given company hinging on one designer, as anyone familiar with Snell speakers among others sadly knows how that can go.

That’s certainly not me downing on “the little guy” options, but given the concern you have on Salon2’s, also seems also a boogabear among some of the competition that’s worth pacing over a bit more.
HEA is really odd in being one of few consumer spaces where such value is attached to potentially service/repair-hungry goods that are only familiar to small company-specific specialists.
There hasn’t been an all-inclusive definition of “end game” speaker yet, but none should include the end of the speaker designer’s game.

Enjoy those action flicks this weekend!

 

[hwest]

The measurements I’ve seen on B&W vs KEF speakers very clearly confirm what your ears have heard.

I'm running 804 D3's and they are quite simply easy on the ears, there is no other way to put it.

 

[MattHooper]

I'm running 804 D3's and they are quite simply easy on the ears, there is no other way to put it.

That reminds me: I just listened again to the B&W 803 D4 speakers a couple of days ago.

Ultimately not a speaker I want to bring home, but man they have a "sound" that's for sure. Just super open, alive, cleanly detailed, zero sense of boxiness from bottom to top.

 

[steve59]

I can accept people having different taste, most of my friends are klipsch owners. B&W doesn’t attempt to meet Dr Toole’s recommendations and that’s a good thing.

 

[Lsc]

I'm running 804 D3's and they are quite simply easy on the ears, there is no other way to put it.

They are very easy on the eyes as well.

 

[Purité Audio]

I can accept people having different taste, most of my friends are klipsch owners. B&W doesn’t attempt to meet Dr Toole’s recommendations and that’s a good thing.

I don’t recollect B&W stating in their marketing that ‘we pride ourselves on making coloured loudspeakers’.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

I don’t recollect B&W stating in their marketing that ‘we pride ourselves on making coloured loudspeakers’.
Keith

That doesn't contradict (or seem to address) steve59's point.

B&W are aware of the research. They've been making speakers for many years, have highly capable facilities for making speakers, making neutral speakers is hardly difficult in this day and age, and yet clearly B&W don't choose the harman curve as a target goal.

Very, very few speaker brands tout their speakers as "colored" whether they are seeking neutral or not, so seems a moot point.

 

[hwest]

That reminds me: I just listened again to the B&W 803 D4 speakers a couple of days ago.

Ultimately not a speaker I want to bring home, but man they have a "sound" that's for sure. Just super open, alive, cleanly detailed, zero sense of boxiness from bottom to top.

They are forward and present for sure on the D4 models, more so than the D3's. If you close your eyes and listen to them vs other speakers you will definitely feel like you are missing a bunch of sound and presence in the room, that' why key reason I love B&W, you will feel like the singer is standing infront of you they are so transparent. If you have a bad source or recording you will know you have a bad recording through them.

 

[chouca]

@MKR Was this you at AXPONA?

This kind of marketing just reminds women that hi-fi is a boys' club. I wish we would do better.

 

[chouca]

@MKR, thanks for posting your short list.

I understood that cosmetics were an important consideration for you (just behind sound quality), whereas aside from maybe the Obelisks, the Soundfield speakers shown on their website look (to my eyes) more on the homemade end of the spectrum, especially given your price point. Have you changed your mind on cosmetics, or are you anticipating a higher level of finish on the speakers than shown on the website?