$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Doodski]

”Flowery” is being kind … you are a gentleman, I would choose different words to describe the nonsense

Some here think along the lines of the flowery stuff being criminal in nature but they are just opinions. Sometimes the subjective and the objective can both be too thick.

 

[MKR]

Some here think along the lines of the flowery stuff being criminal in nature but they are just opinions. Sometimes the subjective and the objective can both be too thick.

I wouldn’t say criminal, but it does certainly crossover into the land of severe annoyance. It’s one thing to write a relevant subjecitve description of what one is hearing, it’s entirely different to write a romance novel about what are in the end just loudspeakers

Anyway, easy to fix, I just don’t read the blah, blah, blah any longer. I have a very small list of online rags I trust, and that list has gone from all hands and toes some years ago to now I can count them on one hand. All the rest is a complete waste of internet cloud storage and my time.

 

[Doodski]

@MKR I only hang @ ASR for technical info about the gear that I operate so that I can listen to tunes. It's alll about the tunes for me.

 

[steve59]

Often reviewers are journalists with a specific amount of words to print. I'm sure some of the mags have requirements, but i've read some fluff that after a few reviews the 'listening impressions' are copy/paste everything's so wonderful garbage. Soundstage and stereophile include measurements, comparisons and associated equipment along with room size and I can get a sense for a reviewers tendencies, but even then in a different room how useful are the listening impressions?

 

[Digby]

Yes and no. I took part in the M2/Salon2 shootout. Spent a day at Harman auditioning all of the JBL line. Spent a day at the Genelec Experience Center outside of Boston. Was able to listen to most side by side in my room which was purpose built at the time.

Lucky you. I think these are two brands, sadly, poorly represented on this side of the pond. Difficult to find/audition 708p, let alone M2s.

I just don’t care to write on audio any longer as this seems to be what certain people want to read versus that of a better understanding of the science and measurements which might be able to point you in a solid direction.

Maybe, but I don't think the science can account for individual preference, and as we are all individuals what is best for one, might not be best for another.

I'm glad you have arrived, so to speak. Perhaps you can tell some of us still 'on our way', whether arriving is better than the journey. It sounds like you'd had your fill of travelling.

 

[goskers]

I'm glad you have arrived, so to speak. Perhaps you can tell some of us still 'on our way', whether arriving is better than the journey. It sounds like you'd had your fill of travelling.

Well, for most I would say that getting off the wagon will be impossible. We are so very influenced by advertising and marketing which is very effective. One has to mentally understand that perfection is not real. The ‘circle of confusion’ as Toole has coined it, makes actual perfection impossible. Over time I would hope that each individual starts to tailor what their preferences might be.
In reflection, I have had a LOT of what would be considered top tier loudspeakers. I have learned to accept a theoretically amazing speaker in the 8361. What it does may not wow everyone depending on what your flavor is. That does not phase me as I can get most anywhere via adding subs or getting into surround formats. From there you can also use the software to adjust to your preference.
I danced around your question a bit. For me, understanding that sound reproduction is all about compromises gets you to a spot where good enough can be accepted. Having sites like this where you can still argue with technical merit helps as well.

 

[MKR]

Hello all! Hope everyone is having a really nice holiday with family and friends, I know I certainly am!

Getting closer to my audition trip in few weeks and in an effort to be as objective as possible and leave no stone unturned, starting to think about my options for DIY and what may be possible in a cost no object design.

Maybe rocking the boat here a bit given discussions we have all had thus far which have specifically been focused on turnkey retail options, but spending this kind of money, I want to be thorough!

So …. any recommendations for DIY designs that can equal/rival those on my short list (for hopefully a lot less money, one of the primary benefits of DIY of course)?

I did take a look at some of the offerings from Troels, but sheesh is that website tough to follow. After a while I was so confused as to what was what and what may be his “flagship” offering I just gave up. I also emailed him asking some specific questions, he does not seem to appreciate questions, and was quite “elusive”. … I think ”The Loudspeaker” design is his flagship, but not so sure. I am also very doubtful on the whole supertweeter topic. I don’t see the benefit.

DIY-Loudspeakers

Any other recommendations? I did consider Linkwitz as a DIY option, but have decided I do not want to go down the dipole path.

Thanks all!

 

[olegtern]

So …. any recommendations for DIY designs that can equal/rival those on my short list

DIY it's a different (parallel) hobby. As a DIY result, you always get equal/rival stuff (Ikea effect), but that's not the point. DIY it's more about R&D, along the way you'll learn a lot more than just buying equipment. But you will pay with time and money (it is very difficult to sell it)) Very exciting and not at all about the end game speakers, this is just the beginning of the game

PS. For a large room DIY offers something like a cool big horn / great CD driver + 15" midbass + multi subs.

 

[MKR]

DIY it's a different (parallel) hobby. As a DIY result, you always get equal/rival stuff (Ikea effect), but that's not the point. DIY it's more about R&D, along the way you'll learn a lot more than just buying equipment. But you will pay with time and money (it is very difficult to sell it)) Very exciting and not at all about the end game speakers, this is just the beginning of the game

PS. For a large room DIY offers something like a cool big horn / great CD driver + 15" midbass + multi subs.

Thanks @olegtern … well, I suppose I should be more specific … I have no interest in developing my own speakers. I do not have the time or knowledge. Rather I am referring to available DIY designs where the designer sells the plans (or even they are public domain in some cases), and also a flat pack best case. Or I could always hire a wood worker to build the cabinets for me. Similar to what Linkwitz is doing with the 521.

 

[Doodski]

Thanks @olegtern … well, I suppose I should be more specific … I have no interest in developing my own speakers. I do not have the time or knowledge. Rather I am referring to available DIY designs where the designer sells the plans (or even they are public domain in some cases), and also a flat pack best case. Or I could always hire a wood worker to build the cabinets for me. Similar to what Linkwitz is doing with the 521.

Have you done a pros and cons list (Benjamin Franklin List.) for not buying factory made gear? For one the worth of the gear is greatly reduced simply because it is a kit or open source plans etc. If you ever want to sell it the opportunities are fewer and lesser.

 

[olegtern]

I have no interest in developing my own speakers

IMHO — then forget DIY (and kits) as a nightmare
(Wrote as DIYer))

 

[Adi777]

Perhaps DIY, Custom, can provide as good quality as well-known loudspeaker companies, maybe even better - many people recommend building subwoofers, or simply having some experienced builder build them. Why should speakers be any different?
I'll probably go the DIY route. Rather, subwoofers for the cinema room, and perhaps loudspeakers for the living room stereo system.

 

[MKR]

Have you done a pros and cons list (Benjamin Franklin List.) for not buying factory made gear? For one the worth of the gear is greatly reduced simply because it is a kit or open source plans etc. If you ever want to sell it the opportunities are fewer and lesser.

Yes, indeed I have. For me, the end conclusion is it is certainly an option IF a DIY design exists that equals or betters performance of what is possible via retail, for (much) lower cost. As to resale, not a factor for me, I would have no plans to resell a DIY design.

 

[MKR]

IMHO — then forget DIY (and kits) as a nightmare
(Wrote as DIYer))

Why is it a nightmare? Not sure I am following …

 

[MKR]

Perhaps DIY, Custom, can provide as good quality as well-known loudspeaker companies, maybe even better - many people recommend building subwoofers, or simply having some experienced builder build them. Why should speakers be any different?
I'll probably go the DIY route. Rather, subwoofers for the cinema room, and perhaps loudspeakers for the living room stereo system.

Agreed … though I think a subwoofer is a simpler design than mains, which explains the large number of available DIY options

 

[MKR]

There are these, but I just can’t see how you could possibly achieve accurate FR with open baffle without active EQ (this is why Siegfried does it on the 521s, he knew what he was doing!)

NX-Treme Kit (Pair) | GR-Research

gr-research.com

Some kudos to GR though as there are measurements, but they don’t look that great, unless I am reading the charts incorrectly

 

[olegtern]

Why is it a nightmare? Not sure I am following …

My point was that if you don't like the DIY process by itself (explore, do something by your hands, spend many days on experiments, etc.), then you will be engaged in the riskiest and not fun part of creating speakers — investment and management. And if you don’t like the result, or after a while you want something new, then it will be more difficult to sell it than branded speakers. In the end, it can actually turn into a real nightmare (little hyperbole)).

 

[MKR]

My point was that if you don't like the DIY process by itself (explore, do something by your hands, spend many days on experiments, etc.), then you will be engaged in the riskiest and not fun part of creating speakers — investment and management. And if you don’t like the result, or after a while you want something new, then it will be more difficult to sell it than branded speakers. In the end, it can actually turn into a real nightmare (little hyperbole)).

Got it, that makes sense, thanks

 

[MKR]

Questions/comments on Salon 2 … Going back through my research on the Salon 2 and I find it interesting that the subjective opinions are either “best ever” or “meh”. Given the overall positive accolades the Salon 2s have received, and the very good objective measurements, how is it possible same speaker could generate such contrasting opinions? While it was far from a scientific study, I noticed a trend … Majority of positive comments were given by those running high power and well measured low distortion amplification. And the converse … Most of the negative/lackluster comments have been from those running what I would consider to be insufficient power (and questionable from objective measurement aspect) amplification given the very low sensitivity of the Salon 2.

Could it also be the reason some prefer the 328Be vs Salon 2? While I realize the objective measurements of the 328 are slightly better than the Salon 2, maybe what folks are hearing between the two is the difference in sensitivity (higher on 328), not necessarily a difference due to the objective measurements?

Thoughts?

 

[mj30250]

I think the answer depends on a variety of variables, not the least of which is whether the comparisons were done level-matched and with plenty of power available.

Run full range and with sufficient power (not necessarily an easy task with the Salon 2 in particular), the Salons should output deeper / more bass. Used with crossovers and well-integrated subs, or if the Salons are simply underpowered, it seems likely that the newer and more "advanced" 328Bes would sound just as good, if not better. I find the midrange driver in the Be series to be particularly smooth, detailed, and pleasant. There's a reason it remains unchanged throughout the entire lineup.

If I had quality subs on tap I'd tend towards the 328s, especially if I wasn't confident in my amps' ability to run the Salons full range at loud volumes. Disclaimer: I've never heard them side by side.