$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Deleted member 57150]

@clevergirl -

If my analysis of the spatial quality improvements offered by AJ's design approach is in the ballpark, then I would expect @MKR to have noticed a significant difference in spatial quality, and in particular the impression of venue size, from one recording to the next.

And if instead he noticed a sameness of apparent venue size from one recording to the next, then I'm wrong.

That's fair...

And for the record, I have not 100% decided on Soundfield, still a long ways from a decision, but they are very promising.

You said in your other post "All the above to say, I believe I have found my end game. Now just need to work with designer to develop a system exactly fitting my needs, going to take more listening and likely a visit to his establishment to listen to additional designs."

Doesnt sound like a long ways to a decision on the brand at least. Have you read this thread mkr? Thoughts? AJ doesnt look like a kind fella

 

[Newman]

Toyed with? I just don’t get this reaction, at all. I have been 100% genuine this entire time. I am truly baffled by the direction this has taken.

I get your dismay.

While I am much too new to this thread to have any such reaction, I think it has arisen from your taking a long, drawn-out ‘Big Reveal’ approach to your (apparent, based on post #2820) chosen winner.

It is an extremely common marketing technique. Just watch commercial TV for any length of time, especially for new product launches and upcoming TV show episodes. In general, people hate that being done to them. So they can be suspicious of its use in relation to anything resembling a commercial product.

My gut feeling is that you wouldn’t have had this reaction if you had simply mentioned the speaker at the time when you came across it, and inserted it into the conversation like any other. Perhaps some sense of fun by you, innocently injecting tension, that you now see has backfired for some of your followers?

If I may ask: how did those speakers turn up in your home? They look like prototypes (and you said so), not finished commercial speakers that you got home for audition. Other speakers by that company don’t share that ‘prototype’ look. Are you having some kind of line-of-conversation with that company in particular? How did that come to pass?

cheers

 

[Newman]

I'd like to add my endorsement of AJ's speaker design insights and skills. At the risk of oversimplifying, imo AJ's unorthodox approach does two things right that often get overlooked. First and most obvious, he is paying a great deal of attention to room interaction, to the extent that his speakers arguably approach being "room agnostic".

I find it hard to call any speaker with rear-firing drivers “room agnostic”. They bring the walls more in to play than ever.

Second, by adding deliberately-delayed rear-firing sound, he is disrupting the "small room signature" inherent to the playback room. The reflections of the rear-firing energy arrive significantly later than would normally correspond with the room's dimensions, contradicting other playback room cues and making the playback room's spatial signature somewhat indistinct. If the spatial signature on the recording is more distinct, or presented more effectively, then the ear/brain system is likely to accept the venue cues on the recording as being the more plausible "package" of spatial cues. The result is a "you are there" presentation instead of a "they are here" presentation.

In other words, what AJ is doing is conducive to both a sound quality and a spatial quality improvement over conventional approaches.

In my opinion.

Certainly it is an admirable goal. But this is not the way to do it.

Firstly, side reflections need to be delayed as a higher priority than the rear reflection needs to be delayed, because they are the first-arriving reflection.

Secondly, delay of reflections is only one part of the “small room signature”. The other part is direction. IIRC Toole mentions this. That’s why multichannel loudspeakers arranged in a ‘surround’ configuration are the only adequate way to deal with the small room signature.

These speakers are an extremely expensive way to deliver what is a second-rate, no, third-rate, approach and solution.

cheers

 

[Lsc]

I get your dismay.

While I am much too new to this thread to have any such reaction, I think it has arisen from your taking a long, drawn-out ‘Big Reveal’ approach to your (apparent, based on post #2820) chosen winner.

It is an extremely common marketing technique. Just watch commercial TV for any length of time, especially for new product launches and upcoming TV show episodes. In general, people hate that being done to them. So they can be suspicious of its use in relation to anything resembling a commercial product.

My gut feeling is that you wouldn’t have had this reaction if you had simply mentioned the speaker at the time when you came across it, and inserted it into the conversation like any other. Perhaps some sense of fun by you, innocently injecting tension, that you now see has backfired for some of your followers?

If I may ask: how did those speakers turn up in your home? They look like prototypes (and you said so), not finished commercial speakers that you got home for audition. Other speakers by that company don’t share that ‘prototype’ look. Are you having some kind of line-of-conversation with that company in particular? How did that come to pass?

cheers

What clevergirl said…that thought also crossed my mind about the whole plant idea. But because active speakers and especially ones that look home made just isn’t my thing so whether it’s true or not (In pretty sure it’s not) is irrelevant to me.

I also agree about the buildup. I literally scoffed when I heard the final reveal…it was a bit anticlimactic as well but same…it’s my opinion and mine only as well. It’s all good - as long as the op is happy, that’s all that matters.

 

[symphara]

@MKR Do these speakers have DSP?

 

[Adi777]

@MKR Have you listened to any AJ speakers? Only prototypes?
@clevergirl Are you done?

 

[Duke]

Woa I feel like Angela Lansbury lol. I am going to go out on a limb here and say MKR and AJ are the same person. Hear me out...

Went down the rabbit hole much further than I should have, but damn this is fascinating. You can see here *screenshot below* that MKR talks about being a former high end audio retail businessman, yet he want's to learn and figure out his preferences. Somewhat naive and yet he sure knows a LOT more than I do about speaker design and data points. Maybe as much as say someone who is an actual speaker designer. He keeps on asking for dealers yada yada. All of this to keep the thread engaging and people interested.

Many times MKR flips and flops around actives and cardioid and dipoles. He even quotes Dr. Toole just as AJ does. This serves two purposes: to keep people guessing and to serve as cues for the product he is going to reveal later on in the discussion.

By building the thread obviously the momentum snowballs. AJ wants to leverage the community because his old profile is gone but the posts are still up (more on that later) and he probably resents how Amir called him out before and his presence lacking on this site. MKR continues to waffle on things. That buys more time to gain more traction and I am guessing because the speakers are not ready yet. It also eliminates top performers in the industry so his product can come out on top.

At one point MKR says, "Reviews and measurements are NOT favorable … is this a joke? And do you happen to work for this company or are a dealer for the brand? And made in China? No thanks."

This is strikingly similar to what AJ said in another comment...

View attachment 290361

Once the prototypes are ready MKR reveals them in the thread all the while saying he spoke to a designer, they took a long time to ship. I think they just werent ready. And the price point listed in the title is so that it could match what these speakers would cost, cementing the thread as a channel to promote not only the brand but the product and all its iterations.

Then there is the language of the posts themselves. Many of both users' content ends in winky faces or puts quotes around words in the middle of paragraphs. Have a look at the posts for yourself. SO similar.


View attachment 290365

In my mind this was all a big reveal and promotion for Soundfield.

False accusations say more about the accusers than about the accused. I'm quoting clevergirl's post here but she's not the only one.

My first conversation with MKR was over twenty years ago. He was not AJ then and is not AJ now.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Some of us, perhaps , need a "chill pill":
A person comes here, and asks for suggestions/recommendations, . not for orders or mandates. We suggested, he choose his own, different path from consensus, or from our (secret? wet? wishes), sometimes known as recommendations..
That's only fair. His money, his tastes, his choices, he gets to live with his choices not with ours... That's IME, the way of life. Why do some would feel a bit annoyed, even in some extent to believe that they've been taken for a ride? Seriously?
@MKR enjoy whatever you end with.

Peace.

 

[MKR]

@clevergirl -

If my analysis of the spatial quality improvements offered by AJ's design approach is in the ballpark, then I would expect @MKR to have noticed a significant difference in spatial quality, and in particular the impression of venue size, from one recording to the next.

And if instead he noticed a sameness of apparent venue size from one recording to the next, then I'm wrong.

The first paragraph is correct

 

[MKR]

That's fair...



You said in your other post "All the above to say, I believe I have found my end game. Now just need to work with designer to develop a system exactly fitting my needs, going to take more listening and likely a visit to his establishment to listen to additional designs."

Doesnt sound like a long ways to a decision on the brand at least. Have you read this thread mkr? Thoughts? AJ doesnt look like a kind fella

Yeah, I got a little ahead of myself, caught up in the moment. Was just very excited at what I was hearing. But do note I stated “I believe“, not I “have”. These designs are very promising, I will leave it at that. There are others that are still in the running, especially the offerings from Clarysis, Diptyque, Legacy, etc. And I must say I still love the Salon 2, just wish they weren’t being discontinued … regardless of what Revel says about availability of replacement drivers, too much risk to have a $20k paperweight. But if this quest goes on much longer, maybe they will release a Salon 3

As to actives, I am still curious about the new GGNTKT as well as the upcoming larger D&D.

 

[MKR]

@MKR Do these speakers have DSP?

Indeed. They use the Hypex DSP

 

[MKR]

@MKR Have you listened to any AJ speakers? Only prototypes?
@clevergirl Are you done?

Just these demos, which again are “franken” speakers (not prototypes) that Soundfield threw together so I could get a sense for the capability. They are far from a final product, but do sound very good. I will actually need to make a trip to Soundfield to hear actual finished products.

 

[MKR]

What clevergirl said…that thought also crossed my mind about the whole plant idea. But because active speakers and especially ones that look home made just isn’t my thing so whether it’s true or not (In pretty sure it’s not) is irrelevant to me.

I also agree about the buildup. I literally scoffed when I heard the final reveal…it was a bit anticlimactic as well but same…it’s my opinion and mine only as well. It’s all good - as long as the op is happy, that’s all that matters.

In hindsight the “buildup” was a bit much, I agree. But it wasn’t buildup, not at all. I was respecting the wishes of Soundfield who rather I not disclose until after I had some time to listen, simple as that. And note if these would have sounded bad, I would have absolutely reported that also, which in fact Soundfield encouraged that I do. But that is not the direction it went.

And for your benefit @Lsc , I still love the Salon 2s. If they were not being discontinued this entire quest may have been over by now . But they are and that caused me to look elsewhere.

 

[MKR]

I find it hard to call any speaker with rear-firing drivers “room agnostic”. They bring the walls more in to play than ever.

Certainly it is an admirable goal. But this is not the way to do it.

Firstly, side reflections need to be delayed as a higher priority than the rear reflection needs to be delayed, because they are the first-arriving reflection.

Secondly, delay of reflections is only one part of the “small room signature”. The other part is direction. IIRC Toole mentions this. That’s why multichannel loudspeakers arranged in a ‘surround’ configuration are the only adequate way to deal with the small room signature.

These speakers are an extremely expensive way to deliver what is a second-rate, no, third-rate, approach and solution.

cheers

Then what in your opinion is the method to deliver what is not a “third rate” solution? Mutichannel?

 

[MKR]

I get your dismay.

While I am much too new to this thread to have any such reaction, I think it has arisen from your taking a long, drawn-out ‘Big Reveal’ approach to your (apparent, based on post #2820) chosen winner.

It is an extremely common marketing technique. Just watch commercial TV for any length of time, especially for new product launches and upcoming TV show episodes. In general, people hate that being done to them. So they can be suspicious of its use in relation to anything resembling a commercial product.

My gut feeling is that you wouldn’t have had this reaction if you had simply mentioned the speaker at the time when you came across it, and inserted it into the conversation like any other. Perhaps some sense of fun by you, innocently injecting tension, that you now see has backfired for some of your followers?

If I may ask: how did those speakers turn up in your home? They look like prototypes (and you said so), not finished commercial speakers that you got home for audition. Other speakers by that company don’t share that ‘prototype’ look. Are you having some kind of line-of-conversation with that company in particular? How did that come to pass?

cheers

Understand on the “reveal” comment. But I truly wasn’t attempting anything insidious here, rather was respecting wishes of Soundfield to not mention name until after I had had time to listen. In hindsight I should just have waited until after I had some audition time before I said anything at all. But then I am sure even in that case I would have been accused of something less than genuine. Darned if you do, darned if you don’t.

How did it come to pass? I have been in discussions with Soundfield since about March when I came upon their speakers in if I all well recall a FL expo show report. Conversation started from there and eventually a demo was offered that would provide an example of the design capabilities. To save shipping cost and risk, Soundfield sent a lower cost and lighter “franken” speaker. Simple as that.

 

[Sokel]

As the most superficial person in ASR I have to ask:
Will that be the final look of the speakers?

I mean,I have laughed a million times here about a sub that came as a gift with an SUV I got which had the same carpeted finish.

 

[MKR]

As the most superficial person in ASR I have to ask:
Will that be the final look of the speakers?

I mean,I have laughed a million times here about a sub that came as a gift with an SUV I got which had the same carpeted finish.

No … as I have stated multiple times now, these are only “franken” demos, not at all a finished speaker. Only a design/technology demo platform

 

[boxerfan88]

Not sure if you’re allowed to measure & post a REW sweep, of the demo speakers from MLP?

I am quite curious how the FR looks…

 

[MKR]

@boxerfan88 Why wouldn’t I be allowed to? Anyway, I planned to do this, but I need to purchase a mic (UMIC) first, be a week or so

 

[boxerfan88]

@boxerfan88 Why wouldn’t I be allowed to? Anyway, I planned to do this, but I need to purchase a mic (UMIC) first, be a week or so

Since it is a R&D unit or pre-production unit, I thought you might be under some sort of non-disclosure arrangement. Since there isn't one...that's great! Looking forward to seeing how the in-room FR looks like... Thank you very much!