$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Deleted member 57150]

May I ask what inputs these speakers have?

you can see in the pictures. Looks like xlr and rca or aes. I’m guessing can really be any combo

 

[Deleted member 57150]

Does anyone else have experience with this brand or the designer? I am having reaaaalllllly hard time finding any info and most of it seems old.

 

[petezapie]

Does anyone else have experience with this brand or the designer? I am having reaaaalllllly hard time finding any info and most of it seems old.

Not sure if this is the designer? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rs-prefer-for-small-room-acoustics.286/page-4

 

[Deleted member 57150]

Not sure if this is the designer? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rs-prefer-for-small-room-acoustics.286/page-4

Yep it is holy $#@!! that got spicy REAL quick. That thread is insane. Still reading.

 

[benanders]

…

But once you move the speakers into a normal room, *now* the speakers all get their unique qualities of soundstage, because 95% of the soundstaging cues are a result of exactly how the speaker and room are interacting, and summing at the specific listening position. Great, you say, I already knew that. But the interaction is so strongly dependent on exactly where they stand regarding distances to walls, reflectivity of walls at first reflection point, and width of room, that you can't think of it as transferable between rooms. And a speaker that you like better for soundstaging in one room, you might like worse in a different room, or even in a different position in the same room. Even the preference for speaker A over B in one room, might be reversed in a different room or listening position.

So you might audition a few speakers and have these really clear perceptions on their soundstage properties and your ranking of them, but they could each deliver such different soundstages in your home that you don't even recognise what you heard in audition, nor have the same ranking.

Same goes for depth cues. As Floyd Toole wrote, "The sense of depth is very imprecise, but most of the evidence points to a proportion between the direct sound and delayed reflections and reverberation."

That's why I said it is, "a ghost that is going to evaporate when he gets them home, except by pure chance". I don't advise putting much weighting on it, when shortlisting or eliminating speakers.

Toole has been cited for different points in this thread; below is an important point somewhat in contrast to what you’re suggesting @Newman :

My own investigation of the importance of loudspeaker directivity as revealed by the energy in lateral wall reflections (Toole, JAES 1985 and section 8.2.1 in my book) examined details of stereo soundstage and sound quality. The principal conclusion was that the recording technique is likely to be the prime determinant of directional and spatial impressions in stereo listening. The loudspeakers and the lateral reflections they generate are factors, but not consistent factors. Differences in soundstage and imaging qualities were thoroughly interrogated and found to be similar in all configurations.
( https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...ons-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer )

Usually when I see discussion about the influence of speaker, room, and/or speaker x room, it omits music source(s). What that means is those discussions hinge their perceptions to the song-by-song decisions of one or a few people - the engineers (or non-engineers) who recorded and mastered the track / album.

Once you have the opportunity to listen to a wide array of original source material to compare production master vs. various remasters, across tracks/albums, you begin to realize speaker (if well-designed), room (unless utter disaster in layout), and speaker x room scale towards the order of magnitude as do differences between well-designed amplifiers. Definitely there, but quantitatively probably not the biggest influence on what you hear. That’s been my inkling for some years now, and while no one researcher is correct in the absence of broadly definitive conclusions just because he/she is very talented, it’s comforting to see similar context from Toole.

Being able to A-B-C(!) between settings on the same speaker with a “click” is pretty darned cool.
“I’ve been told…” it takes great consideration to implement rear-firing drivers, depending on their frequency range. If anything from tweeter-town, can purportedly create serious issues, easily. Im guessing @MKR is sensitive to high frequency based on many comments over the years months , so perhaps some frequencies in that rear-firing driver are a bit high, at least for his taste, vs. how they’re interacting with the environment. I’d expect the influence of early high frequency early reflections would be fairly dependent on distance from walls vs. seating position, so in that case room-specific EQ (the designer’s drapes vs. OP’s exposed walls) could (should?) make a noticeable difference.

OP’s comments about the other two speaker settings vs. “omni” read similar to comparisons I’ve seen folks make about, say, swapping Suguang KT-66’s for Gold Lion replicas (back when you could easily get the latter…). Noticeably different, one preferable to the other for different reasons, side effects may include “harshness.” But play meaningfully different music sources through either tube speaker setting, and you’ll likely notice considerably more difference that way. Not negating the influence of speaker (or room, or speaker x room), but rather emphasizing the importance of the actual music recordings to which one listens.
So also suggests Toole. Cool cool.

 

[Deleted member 57150]

I had a feeling this thread might be too good to be true. The waiting the teasing out of info. Look I could be way off base and I hope that I am, but a new lurker posts about a high end budget system which of course garners lots of interest. That thread balloons into a mega thread with nearly 3K posts and Op somehow lands on a brand not anyone of us has really heard of and the designer has a previous beef with the guy who runs this website??

Flame me all you want but I would proceed with caution to any potential buyers. I just find it extremely hard to believe that someone is going to drop that kind of coin on an end game system from a brand that would love to get some exposure on here. I used to work in advertising and this would happen a lot more than you think. Someone planting a seed from an anonymous account that grows and generates 1 million or more in sales. I know because I did it once. Paranoid rant over. I am going to stop following this now, and I know I ruffled some feathers but I was legit about to contact this designer..that thread gives me a lot of pause. thanks @petezapie for replying.

note: before you flame me, the above is my opinion and mine alone. I am just expressing it.

edit: and said designers profile is no longer active or he was banned...the thot plickens

 

[benanders]

 

[kma100]

I had a feeling this thread might be too good to be true. The waiting the teasing out of info. Look I could be way off base and I hope that I am, but a new lurker posts about a high end budget system which of course garners lots of interest. That thread balloons into a mega thread with nearly 3K posts and Op somehow lands on a brand not anyone of us has really heard of and the designer has a previous beef with the guy who runs this website??

Flame me all you want but I would proceed with caution to any potential buyers. I just find it extremely hard to believe that someone is going to drop that kind of coin on an end game system from a brand that would love to get some exposure on here. I used to work in advertising and this would happen a lot more than you think. Someone planting a seed from an anonymous account that grows and generates 1 million or more in sales. I know because I did it once. Paranoid rant over. I am going to stop following this now, and I know I ruffled some feathers but I was legit about to contact this designer..that thread gives me a lot of pause. thanks @petezapie for replying.

note: before you flame me, the above is my opinion and mine alone. I am just expressing it.

edit: and said designers profile is no longer active or he was banned...the thot plickens

Alternate view...OP is honest. AJ might have been banned and judging from his interaction here and on AVS, he does come across as (needlessly?) combative.

 

[Deleted member 57150]

Alternate view...OP is honest. AJ might have been banned and judging from his interaction here and on AVS, he does come across as (needlessly?) combative.

Why I said I hope I am wrong. Just odd to me (again my instinct and not necessarily whats true) that Op lands on the sound fields overwhelmingly. Not like they said oh I need to audition that was it once they heard those. Totally possible what youre saying.

 

[MattHooper]

I had a feeling this thread might be too good to be true. The waiting the teasing out of info. Look I could be way off base and I hope that I am, but a new lurker posts about a high end budget system which of course garners lots of interest. That thread balloons into a mega thread with nearly 3K posts and Op somehow lands on a brand not anyone of us has really heard of and the designer has a previous beef with the guy who runs this website??

Flame me all you want but I would proceed with caution to any potential buyers. I just find it extremely hard to believe that someone is going to drop that kind of coin on an end game system from a brand that would love to get some exposure on here. I used to work in advertising and this would happen a lot more than you think. Someone planting a seed from an anonymous account that grows and generates 1 million or more in sales. I know because I did it once. Paranoid rant over. I am going to stop following this now, and I know I ruffled some feathers but I was legit about to contact this designer..that thread gives me a lot of pause. thanks @petezapie for replying.

note: before you flame me, the above is my opinion and mine alone. I am just expressing it.

edit: and said designers profile is no longer active or he was banned...the thot plickens

Says a new member with only 28 posts, suspiciously dropping in to this thread.

Which Soundfield Audio competitor are you working for?

Or did Amir set you up to this to get back at AJ?

Amir, is that you?

 

[Deleted member 57150]

Says a new member with only 28 posts, suspiciously dropping in to this thread.

Which Soundfield Audio competitor are you working for?

Or did Amir set you up to this to get back at AJ?

Amir, is that you?

Hahaha I had a feeling that would come up. Yeah I have had another older account but I forgot the password/couldn’t reset I mean I’m not promoting any one brand here. I wish I earned hifi markups. But if I owned company that sold anything audio related all of my earnings would go back into more gear.

 

[Short38]

After reading this thread periodically based on the fascinating original post, I thought members were being toyed with. After around 1,000 posts (I’m a slow learner) I awaited OP’s forgone conclusion. Looked at the Soundfield web site and came away baffled by the profusion of models and design ideas and availability and frequency specs on several models. One model was constructed around a dual concentric 12” “full range”. Some open baffle. Some sealed. Overall off the rails. But after reading OP’s TAS worthy review of the prototype my BS meter hit 10. Earlier I suggested that the OP go with a pair of AR3’s - remember those Grand Central Station demos! I stand by my ears. But as always in audio land to each

 

[Newman]

Toole has been cited for different points in this thread; below is an important point somewhat in contrast to what you’re suggesting @Newman :

My own investigation of the importance of loudspeaker directivity as revealed by the energy in lateral wall reflections (Toole, JAES 1985 and section 8.2.1 in my book) examined details of stereo soundstage and sound quality. The principal conclusion was that the recording technique is likely to be the prime determinant of directional and spatial impressions in stereo listening. The loudspeakers and the lateral reflections they generate are factors, but not consistent factors. Differences in soundstage and imaging qualities were thoroughly interrogated and found to be similar in all configurations.
( https://www.audioholics.com/room-ac...ons-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer )

Usually when I see discussion about the influence of speaker, room, and/or speaker x room, it omits music source(s). What that means is those discussions hinge their perceptions to the song-by-song decisions of one or a few people - the engineers (or non-engineers) who recorded and mastered the track / album.

Once you have the opportunity to listen to a wide array of original source material to compare production master vs. various remasters, across tracks/albums, you begin to realize speaker (if well-designed), room (unless utter disaster in layout), and speaker x room scale towards the order of magnitude as do differences between well-designed amplifiers. Definitely there, but quantitatively probably not the biggest influence on what you hear. That’s been my inkling for some years now, and while no one researcher is correct in the absence of broadly definitive conclusions just because he/she is very talented, it’s comforting to see similar context from Toole….

Hi there, thanks for your considered input. Well said.

I am not disagreeing with Toole’s experimentally-validated conclusion that “the recording technique is likely to be the prime determinant of directional and spatial impressions in stereo listening”.

I am talking about the OP auditioning speakers with (we certainly hope) the same recordings, and reporting huge differences in soundstage (directional and spatial impressions). So, with the prime determinant neutralised, what is the secondary determinant? To be honest, it’s probably the sighted listening effect. But I didn’t mention that because it tends to attract the usual suspects in denial, and because I wanted to discuss another matter that would actually survive a controlled listening test, even if the OP went back to his audition locations and re-auditioned under controlled conditions. Specifically, the non-transferability of perceived differences in soundstage, from the audition venue to his home.

My stated aim in doing so, was to discourage the OP from progressing his speaker shortlist with such a strong weighting on soundstage differences. Which would be consistent with Toole’s conclusion that the recording technique is more important to (stereo) soundstage than differences between speakers.

cheers

 

[Duke]

Ah....AJ!

An opinionated sort, but apparently a heck of a speaker designer. His set ups get some rave reviews at shows etc. Well done! I'm super happy for you.
I love the idea of the flexibility of the system, especially with remote control. That kind of stuff is right up my alley.

I'd like to add my endorsement of AJ's speaker design insights and skills.

At the risk of oversimplifying, imo AJ's unorthodox approach does two things right that often get overlooked.

First and most obvious, he is paying a great deal of attention to room interaction, to the extent that his speakers arguably approach being "room agnostic".

Second, by adding deliberately-delayed rear-firing sound, he is disrupting the "small room signature" inherent to the playback room. The reflections of the rear-firing energy arrive significantly later than would normally correspond with the room's dimensions, contradicting other playback room cues and making the playback room's spatial signature somewhat indistinct. If the spatial signature on the recording is more distinct, or presented more effectively, then the ear/brain system is likely to accept the venue cues on the recording as being the more plausible "package" of spatial cues. The result is a "you are there" presentation instead of a "they are here" presentation.

In other words, what AJ is doing is conducive to both a sound quality and a spatial quality improvement over conventional approaches.

In my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 57150]

I'd like to add my endorsement of AJ's speaker design insights and skills.

At the risk of oversimplifying, imo AJ's unorthodox approach does two things right that often get overlooked.

First and most obvious, he is paying a great deal of attention to room interaction, to the extent that his speakers arguably approach being "room agnostic".

Second, by adding deliberately-delayed rear-firing sound, he is disrupting the "small room signature" inherent to the playback room. The reflections of the rear-firing energy arrive significantly later than would normally correspond with the room's dimensions, contradicting other playback room cues and making the playback room's spatial signature somewhat indistinct. If the spatial signature on the recording is more distinct, or presented more effectively, then the ear/brain system is likely to accept the venue cues on the recording as being the more plausible "package" of spatial cues. The result is a "you are there" presentation instead of a "they are here" presentation.

In my opinion.

Would love to hear @amirm 's take on all of this...

 

[MattHooper]

After reading this thread periodically based on the fascinating original post, I thought members were being toyed with. After around 1,000 posts (I’m a slow learner) I awaited OP’s forgone conclusion.

I'm curious what you mean by "forgone conclusion." Did you actually predict, somehow, that MKR would select Soundfield Audio speakers?

 

[Duke]

Would love to hear @amirm 's take on all of this...

So would I!

 

[MKR]

I had a feeling this thread might be too good to be true. The waiting the teasing out of info. Look I could be way off base and I hope that I am, but a new lurker posts about a high end budget system which of course garners lots of interest. That thread balloons into a mega thread with nearly 3K posts and Op somehow lands on a brand not anyone of us has really heard of and the designer has a previous beef with the guy who runs this website??

Flame me all you want but I would proceed with caution to any potential buyers. I just find it extremely hard to believe that someone is going to drop that kind of coin on an end game system from a brand that would love to get some exposure on here. I used to work in advertising and this would happen a lot more than you think. Someone planting a seed from an anonymous account that grows and generates 1 million or more in sales. I know because I did it once. Paranoid rant over. I am going to stop following this now, and I know I ruffled some feathers but I was legit about to contact this designer..that thread gives me a lot of pause. thanks @petezapie for replying.

note: before you flame me, the above is my opinion and mine alone. I am just expressing it.

edit: and said designers profile is no longer active or he was banned...the thot plickens

This thread sure went sideways very quick. This is completely NOT accurate. Very sad as I suspect the thread will quickly get shut down at this rate. And for the record, I have not 100% decided on Soundfield, still a long ways from a decision, but they are very promising.

Please, please, please don’t make this into something it is not.

 

[MKR]

After reading this thread periodically based on the fascinating original post, I thought members were being toyed with. After around 1,000 posts (I’m a slow learner) I awaited OP’s forgone conclusion. Looked at the Soundfield web site and came away baffled by the profusion of models and design ideas and availability and frequency specs on several models. One model was constructed around a dual concentric 12” “full range”. Some open baffle. Some sealed. Overall off the rails. But after reading OP’s TAS worthy review of the prototype my BS meter hit 10. Earlier I suggested that the OP go with a pair of AR3’s - remember those Grand Central Station demos! I stand by my ears. But as always in audio land to each

Toyed with? I just don’t get this reaction, at all. I have been 100% genuine this entire time. I am truly baffled by the direction this has taken.

 

[Duke]

@clevergirl -

If my analysis of the spatial quality improvements offered by AJ's design approach is in the ballpark, then I would expect @MKR to have noticed a significant difference in spatial quality, and in particular the impression of venue size, from one recording to the next.

And if instead he noticed a sameness of apparent venue size from one recording to the next, then I'm wrong.

edited to add: MKR has replied to this post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-end-game-speaker.38378/page-144#post-1615589