$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[IamJF]

Now when it comes to rock or pop why do those concerts play at 120dB? Why aren’t people running away?

There are no live concerts at 120dBSpl(A)! When you do that in Europe you are done with business and pay for the rest of your live.

Nowerdays with line arrays level in the audience is pretty even distributed, there are no "hotspots" in the front. I always had an SPL Meter running when mixing at the FOH position. I'm normally not mixing lound (cause it makes no sense anyway, people/ears get used to it and you have to get louder every 2 songs), always staying under 100dBSpl. The law says 96dBSpl(A) for long time exposure. And at 105dBSpl(A) it already get's pretty loud ...

I once had a monitored PA system in a huge "Bierzelt" (Gäubodenfest, Germany) which puts the PA down a few dB when you get over the 96dBSpl(A) limit. Problem was the crowd already had about 85-90dBSpl and when screaming the PA was getting down ... that was a hard job but a lot of funny people in Bavaria

As you write when the source is clean you get used to the level and for a new "kick" you have to raise the level. But it doesn't really get better, you get used to it again. Just more distortion of your ear and guaranteed damage over time (like the "headphone kids". Way to loud (cause no distortion) for long time - they all will get hearing problems in their 50-60s). The ear doesn't repair. Once you killed your hf receptors in the cochlea they are done.

(The lessons about hearing physiology was one of the most important at sound engineering university. They need to teach that in middle school when it's not to late!)

 

[notsodeadlizard]

127 pages
I wonder if this choice of speakers by those who have never heard them will ever end at all?
No, it's understandable, I'm very bored myself, but...

 

[MKR]

Listen to these beauties. 6 kW. No additional amps required.

Genelec Introduces Large Size 8381A Point Source Main Monitor

As part of its 45th anniversary year, Genelec has unveiled the 8381A Smart Active Monitoring system, a flagship floor-standing Adaptive Point Source design. According to the company, the large 8381A monitor fuses "exceptional precision and envelopment with unrivaled LF control, huge headroom and...

audioxpress.com

Nope, not my cup of tea. Aside from the fact that they are way over budget and the discussion is fully academic, not the sonic characteristics I am looking for. Narrow dispersion is the main issue, output drops considerably off axis. As most should have learned by now, my preference is a massive soundstage with holographic imaging. Also, as I am more and more becoming enamored with cardioid bass to the lowest freq, these are omni below 70Hz best I can tell. These are a tool for a job, not intended for home listening (but they will make you deaf with very low distortion, no doubt!). As a friend of mine stated in a personal conversation, these will sound like giant headphones.

All above to say, incredible design and engineering, very cool and a remarkable achievement, but not for me.

 

[srrxr71]

There are no live concerts at 120dBSpl(A)! When you do that in Europe you are done with business and pay for the rest of your live.

Nowerdays with line arrays level in the audience is pretty even distributed, there are no "hotspots" in the front. I always had an SPL Meter running when mixing at the FOH position. I'm normally not mixing lound (cause it makes no sense anyway, people/ears get used to it and you have to get louder every 2 songs), always staying under 100dBSpl. The law says 96dBSpl(A) for long time exposure. And at 105dBSpl(A) it already get's pretty loud ...

I once had a monitored PA system in a huge "Bierzelt" (Gäubodenfest, Germany) which puts the PA down a few dB when you get over the 96dBSpl(A) limit. Problem was the crowd already had about 85-90dBSpl and when screaming the PA was getting down ... that was a hard job but a lot of funny people in Bavaria

As you write when the source is clean you get used to the level and for a new "kick" you have to raise the level. But it doesn't really get better, you get used to it again. Just more distortion of your ear and guaranteed damage over time (like the "headphone kids". Way to loud (cause no distortion) for long time - they all will get hearing problems in their 50-60s). The ear doesn't repair. Once you killed your hf receptors in the cochlea they are done.

(The lessons about hearing physiology was one of the most important at sound engineering university. They need to teach that in middle school when it's not to late!)

No doubt about hearing physiology. The thing I most regret was my Walkman use when I was younger. Back then they didn’t have all the limits we have now.


Now it’s about 4-5 hours once a week.

The hand does what the hand does with that chunky GLM volume control. Can’t help it.

 

[srrxr71]

Nope, not my cup of tea. Aside from the fact that they are way over budget and the discussion is fully academic, not the sonic characteristics I am looking for. Narrow dispersion is the main issue, output drops considerably off axis. As most should have learned by now, my preference is a massive soundstage with holographic imaging. Also, as I am more and more becoming enamored with cardioid bass to the lowest freq, these are omni below 70Hz best I can tell. These are a tool for a job, not intended for home listening (but they will make you deaf with very low distortion, no doubt!). As a friend of mine stated in a personal conversation, these will sound like giant headphones.

All above to say, incredible design and engineering, very cool and a remarkable achievement, but not for me.

That’s exactly what they are. Giant headphones. At least I can say that about 83x1/w371.

There is room for one person in the sweet spot and perhaps another seated behind on the same axis.

They are exactly what I want and they are glorious.

However for home theatre consumption - probably not a good idea.

 

[MKR]

127 pages
I wonder if this choice of speakers by those who have never heard them will ever end at all?
No, it's understandable, I'm very bored myself, but...

Hard to believe we are at 127 pages indeed. Feels like I just started this journey. Good news is I know what I want, now I just need to find the design that comes closest to my ideal of said characteristics. As a hint and just for Keith’s (@Purité Audio) enjoyment, I am leaning towards active designs (and no, NOT the “G” word )

 

[Adi777]

As a hint and just for Keith’s (@Purité Audio) enjoyment, I am leaning towards active designs (and no, NOT the “G” word )

You wait for the bigger and louder Dutch & Dutch?

 

[srrxr71]

Let me guess. JBL. M2? Glad you decided on active. Passives have no real place in this day and age imho.

 

[Purité Audio]

Hard to believe we are at 127 pages indeed. Feels like I just started this journey. Good news is I know what I want, now I just need to find the design that comes closest to my ideal of said characteristics. As a hint and just for Keith’s (@Purité Audio) enjoyment, I am leaning towards active designs (and no, NOT the “G” word )

They offer real sound quality advantages for domestic ( studio as well) living spaces, that’s it really.
Keith

 

[D!sco]

There are no live concerts at 120dBSpl(A)! When you do that in Europe you are done with business and pay for the rest of your live.

Nowerdays with line arrays level in the audience is pretty even distributed, there are no "hotspots" in the front. I always had an SPL Meter running when mixing at the FOH position. I'm normally not mixing lound (cause it makes no sense anyway, people/ears get used to it and you have to get louder every 2 songs), always staying under 100dBSpl. The law says 96dBSpl(A) for long time exposure. And at 105dBSpl(A) it already get's pretty loud ...

I once had a monitored PA system in a huge "Bierzelt" (Gäubodenfest, Germany) which puts the PA down a few dB when you get over the 96dBSpl(A) limit. Problem was the crowd already had about 85-90dBSpl and when screaming the PA was getting down ... that was a hard job but a lot of funny people in Bavaria

As you write when the source is clean you get used to the level and for a new "kick" you have to raise the level. But it doesn't really get better, you get used to it again. Just more distortion of your ear and guaranteed damage over time (like the "headphone kids". Way to loud (cause no distortion) for long time - they all will get hearing problems in their 50-60s). The ear doesn't repair. Once you killed your hf receptors in the cochlea they are done.

(The lessons about hearing physiology was one of the most important at sound engineering university. They need to teach that in middle school when it's not to late!)

I'm really confused about your sources. Line arrays have massive hotspots and combing in the industry. They're terrible for live shows. JBL's in particular are the worst. Sometimes I see nice cardioid subs spaced appropriately, most of the time I just see isobarics on stage or in front shaking the house. I've been to a number of USA concerts that peak at or above 120dB SPL, especially in the hot zone, which makes me question where you're getting this information at all? I agree that it's a problem playing at high levels, which is why most concert venues I've been besides the opera or a musical also offer earplugs.

 

[srrxr71]

I'm really confused about your sources. Line arrays have massive hotspots and combing in the industry. They're terrible for live shows. JBL's in particular are the worst. Sometimes I see nice cardioid subs spaced appropriately, most of the time I just see isobarics on stage or in front shaking the house. I've been to a number of USA concerts that peak at or above 120dB SPL, especially in the hot zone, which makes me question where you're getting this information at all? I agree that it's a problem playing at high levels, which is why most concert venues I've been besides the opera or a musical also offer earplugs.

Everything I’ve heard about line arrays says that on a horizontal plane they are very consistent.

 

[D!sco]

Everything I’ve heard about line arrays says that on a horizontal plane they are very consistent.

That's where I find the most problems. Most of the time, the "pit" up front is the quietest because the line arrays act like a laser beam. I never seem to get more than 30 degrees off-axis walking around a concert hall to get a drink. The better clubs have infill speakers to broaden the directivity, but the time domain is a mess. Works on-stage, terrible up front or in the back. The combing is between each section of the array as well. Walk forward a few steps while in front of the array, and maybe you're in a cancellation zone. You're thinking of a Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT array). Those are shaded for directivity and don't cancel. Nobody uses those in pro audio because they are center-limited to SPL. Concert halls are all about moving tons of air in a massive space consistently. I'm just surprised at how little effort actually goes into that compared to the insane home projects here, and I've seen people's wave diagrams for venue setups. They definitely know more than us.

 

[IamJF]

I'm really confused about your sources. Line arrays have massive hotspots and combing in the industry. They're terrible for live shows. JBL's in particular are the worst. Sometimes I see nice cardioid subs spaced appropriately, most of the time I just see isobarics on stage or in front shaking the house. I've been to a number of USA concerts that peak at or above 120dB SPL, especially in the hot zone, which makes me question where you're getting this information at all? I agree that it's a problem playing at high levels, which is why most concert venues I've been besides the opera or a musical also offer earplugs.

I measured the levels with my NTi XL2 and Class 1 measurement microphone. During shows I mixed. Where did you got your measurements from?

You don't measure peak values for noise exposure. Of course there are loud peaks with live music - but these are factored in the way you measure, esp. Leq measurements.
You measure L_AS and L_Aeq cause these are the values you need to control by law. And probably L_CS cause it's more realistic - but nobody official cares about that.

Line arrays are invented cause they are able to get great distribution. You have less speaker hanging for the front angled and more aiming for the distance. Less loss over distance.

Line Arrays Explained

If you've been to a large gig or a festival in recent years, you've no doubt had the pleasure of hearing line arrays of loudspeakers in action. But why are line arrays the current 'best practice' in large-scale PA, how did they evolve, and will they ever filter down to more modest gig venues?

www.soundonsound.com

MAPP XT

System Design Tool

meyersound.com

Good line arrays are working as an array to pretty high frequencies, no hotspots or combing. As you often only need one line per side you don't have combfilters you get with most horn speakers when stacked horizontal.

BUT - you need a systech who knows what he does! I often see line arrays hanging completely wrong. Or just used for the wrong job (not everything is best solved with an array). I was never a fan of JBL PA systems, esp their older 2" drivers. I had horrible installed small JBL arrays here in middle Europe. But they make great horns and LF drivers.

All big manufacturers have simulation programs which help for perfect setup so you get the sound to the people and not against the back wall (often happens with wrong installed indoor arrays). But peope are lazy or don't have time ...

(after reading your comment again - are you talking about bass range only?)

 

[IamJF]

That's where I find the most problems. Most of the time, the "pit" up front is the quietest because the line arrays act like a laser beam. I never seem to get more than 30 degrees off-axis walking around a concert hall to get a drink. The better clubs have infill speakers to broaden the directivity, but the time domain is a mess. Works on-stage, terrible up front or in the back. The combing is between each section of the array as well. Walk forward a few steps while in front of the array, and maybe you're in a cancellation zone. You're thinking of a Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT array). Those are shaded for directivity and don't cancel. Nobody uses those in pro audio because they are center-limited to SPL. Concert halls are all about moving tons of air in a massive space consistently. I'm just surprised at how little effort actually goes into that compared to the insane home projects here, and I've seen people's wave diagrams for venue setups. They definitely know more than us.

What you describe is a to small array hung wrong (to straight - it would be needed strongly angled in a club. Also pretty high). That's not the fault of the principle.

Get on a good festival outdoors and put in your demo tracks for setup and walk around - a good system can sound amazing!

 

[D!sco]

What you describe is a to small array hung wrong (to straight - it would be needed strongly angled in a club. Also pretty high). That's not the fault of the principle.

Get on a good festival outdoors and put in your demo tracks for setup and walk around - a good system can sound amazing!

I've done much smaller venues back in college-- no line arrays, just about four big JBLs that can't do bass in 4pi space. Nobody could do "real equipment" on our budget, so I did heavy lifting for my audio technician friends and gave impressions from seating positions. I did broadcasting for fun and met a lot of great dudes in the live space industry. My experience in this regard is just going to concerts with line arrays and experiencing them given what I know. Most don't seem to be set up right, even in permanent music club conditions. That's what surprises me. Clubs in SF, LA, Seattle all suck with permanent setups that don't travel the room with you. A lot of them are set up for a wide stage without depth. Hugely missed opportunity right there. I see arrays practically on their side trying to fill the gaps, but they don't sound the same. This is where I'm getting 120dB SPL continuous, is hot spots. The center of the room is fine, but standing in front of a line array like this is kind of like being shot in the face by a midrange wave.

Do you do international setups, or just Europe? I've never heard of SPL limits like you're talking about but I'm interested. We would often target ~105-112dB continuous, but it's not rare for a DJ to see that and crank it from the stage to earbleed levels. All of this experience is in California, so I really don't know what the international rules are.

 

[D!sco]

I’ll reiterate, @IamJF, for posterity. I really don’t know where you got your information and I was curious. We have clearly had different experiences and it was confusing hearing a very opposite experience.

My experience still involves heat mapping by professionals, we were just much lower tech. Sometimes we’d print out or draw a floor plan to scale, draw, copy, or print out heat maps of pro speakers we had, and tried to estimate a room response. At least in the isometric plane. We would often try to continue these bounces to get a clearer estimate of reflections. Seeing most permanent setups in the USA, especially indoor, the line array is for show. It’s a symbol of volume at a concert and is used like a totem of musical might. I really hate them most of the time. Usually what people end up hearing is a mix of the reflections from those line arrays and the supporting monitors.

 

[srrxr71]

That's where I find the most problems. Most of the time, the "pit" up front is the quietest because the line arrays act like a laser beam. I never seem to get more than 30 degrees off-axis walking around a concert hall to get a drink. The better clubs have infill speakers to broaden the directivity, but the time domain is a mess. Works on-stage, terrible up front or in the back. The combing is between each section of the array as well. Walk forward a few steps while in front of the array, and maybe you're in a cancellation zone. You're thinking of a Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT array). Those are shaded for directivity and don't cancel. Nobody uses those in pro audio because they are center-limited to SPL. Concert halls are all about moving tons of air in a massive space consistently. I'm just surprised at how little effort actually goes into that compared to the insane home projects here, and I've seen people's wave diagrams for venue setups. They definitely know more than us.

I’m sort of confused about what this guy is saying:

 

[MattHooper]

Hard to believe we are at 127 pages indeed. Feels like I just started this journey. Good news is I know what I want, now I just need to find the design that comes closest to my ideal of said characteristics. As a hint and just for Keith’s (@Purité Audio) enjoyment, I am leaning towards active designs (and no, NOT the “G” word )

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[benanders]

That's where I find the most problems. Most of the time, the "pit" up front is the quietest because the line arrays act like a laser beam. I never seem to get more than 30 degrees off-axis walking around a concert hall to get a drink. The better clubs have infill speakers to broaden the directivity, but the time domain is a mess. Works on-stage, terrible up front or in the back. The combing is between each section of the array as well. Walk forward a few steps while in front of the array, and maybe you're in a cancellation zone. You're thinking of a Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT array). Those are shaded for directivity and don't cancel. Nobody uses those in pro audio because they are center-limited to SPL. Concert halls are all about moving tons of air in a massive space consistently. I'm just surprised at how little effort actually goes into that compared to the insane home projects here, and I've seen people's wave diagrams for venue setups. They definitely know more than us.

Line arrays should control vertical directivity (and consequently near-field : far-field transitions) by design, not horizontal directivity. If lines beam such that being directly in front of one channel gives an overly-directional or over-emphasized sound, that’s a problem specific to the given drivers and/or speaker / signal implementation. And maybe not an uncommon one.

I went to an amplified concert in the tallest hall of the Opera House on a trip to Sydney some years ago - exact same show two nights in a row. First night I was directly in front of the right (line) channel, and the sound was similar to what you described @D!sco , a midrange “shot in the face” - felt like the whole stage ensemble was trying to escape from the right channel directly through my person.
The next night I was only a few rows further back, but in the hall center. Still not epic sounding kit, but no noteworthy issues in sound panning or time alignment when I was ~equidistant to L-R channels.
Next day a local friend later told me how the facility knew it needed to upgrade its dated PA kit, that it was relatively common public knowledge in the city. That was in ‘16 or early ‘17, I think.

 

[srrxr71]

Line arrays should control vertical directivity (and consequently near-field : far-field transitions) by design, not horizontal directivity. If lines beam such that being directly in front of one channel gives an overly-directional or over-emphasized sound, that’s a problem specific to the given drivers and/or speaker / signal implementation. And maybe not an uncommon one.

I went to an amplified concert in the tallest hall of the Opera House on a trip to Sydney some years ago - exact same show two nights in a row. First night I was directly in front of the right (line) channel, and the sound was similar to what you described @D!sco , a midrange “shot in the face” - felt like the whole stage ensemble was trying to escape from the right channel directly through my person.
The next night I was only a few rows further back, but in the hall center. Still not epic sounding kit, but no noteworthy issues in sound panning or time alignment when I was ~equidistant to L-R channels.
Next day a local friend later told me how the facility knew it needed to upgrade its dated PA kit, that it was relatively common public knowledge in the city. That was in ‘16 or early ‘17, I think.

But what really can be done if you are not at least somewhat between the 2 line arrays? That seems like a geometry problem that no design can solve.