'1K€ for TWO DIFFERENT pairs of headphones' Challenge

[Jose Hidalgo]

@Robbo99999 , we can definitely NOT blame you for spreading your passion. Thanks for sharing it here, including your EQ settings, they will remain useful for future reference. I wish everybody would be as enthusiastic as you.
The 600 is already on my list (well, the 660s). As for the NAD, I'll look into it. It's been a while since I listened to NAD stuff!

That being said, if anybody wants to chime in, I'd really appreciate some comments on my passive patch bay post (post #35 on page 2). I'd like to pass the order within the next days, so I need to be sure that I'm not making a mistake here. The goal is to be ready for the future, being able to potentially host several amps (up to 6 actually), while having each headphone EQed individually. Would that be the ideal setup for my case? Could I improve it or simplify it in any way? I don't really see how, besides getting a single multichannel DAC instead of 2 Topping E30. But multichannel DACs are way more expensive and not necessarily better performance-wise, right?

 

[Robbo99999]

@Robbo99999 , we can definitely NOT blame you for spreading your passion. Thanks for sharing it here, including your EQ settings, they will remain useful for future reference. I wish everybody would be as enthusiastic as you.
The 600 is already on my list (well, the 660s). As for the NAD, I'll look into it. It's been a while since I listened to NAD stuff!

That being said, if anybody wants to chime in, I'd really appreciate some comments on my passive patch bay post (post #35 on this same page). I'd like to pass the order within the next days, so I need to be sure that I'm not making a mistake here. The goal is to be ready for the future, being able to potentially host several amps (up to 6 actually), while having each headphone EQed individually. Would that be the ideal setup for my case? Could I improve it or simplify it in any way? I don't really see how, besides getting a single multichannel DAC instead of 2 Topping E30. But multichannel DACs are way more expensive and not necessarily better performance-wise, right?

You might find the HD600 is actually better than the HD660s, I think that's what I've heard generally. Certainly the frequency profile of the HD600 is smoother in the treble, whereas the HD660s has more unfixable peaks/troughs, so I'm thinking that HD600 would be a more solid choice than HD660s:
HD600:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dm0m6u3s3b4zqzl/Sennheiser HD600.pdf?dl=0
HD660s:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4isno09gt20ozf/Sennheiser HD660S.pdf?dl=0


I took a look at your Post #35 you mentioned. So you're wanting to connect 2 DACS to up to 4 headphone amps. I think if you bought two of these cheap switches it would work if your run the switch backwards: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000XT8XHU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I use this switch in the normal sense, ie one output & two inputs, but you could instead connect your DAC output to the switch output, and then connect your two headphone amps to the switch inputs....remember because you're running the switch backwards. So this would enable you to switch at the press of a button between having your DAC output to headphone amp A or B. Obviously each DAC would have one of those switches I linked at the link above, so two switches required to satisfy x2 DACS and x4 Headphone Amps. The switches actually look & feel higher quality than they do in the pic, and the switches have a satisfying/reassuring clunk/clang to them when you operate it. I'm assuming there's no downside to running the switches backwards, which is what you would need to do.....I think in the Amazon reviews/questions there's people that are running them backwards. I've done critical listening and can't notice any degredation of audio quality over the switch, and I've also measured resistance over the switch using a multimeter and it doesn't add any resistance above & beyond that already present by the RCA cables.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks Robbo.

About the graphs you linked, I wonder if they didn't just spend more time on the HD600 than on the HD660s. The PEQ table has 10 filters for the 600 and only 6 for the 660s. Maybe if we added 4 more filters to the 660s we would achieve an even better response. Am I wrong? But you're right, I could try to find a good deal on the 600 before sellers run out of stock.

As for the switches, I really prefer the patch bay solution. The main reason is that the patch bay would allow us to connect any DAC to any headphone amp, whereas the switches would only allow us to connect a given DAC to two of the headphone amps. That point is important for two reasons :

1. What if one day we want to listen to two headphone amps that are connected to the same DAC? With the switches we couldn't easily. With the patch bay we'd just need to switch one of the two front cables (the front cables would be way more accessible than the back cables).
2. Because in our living room all these equipments are not physically at the same place : some are at my GF's listening position, some are at my listening position, and some are in between. It's difficult to explain without a schematic, so trust me on this one.

Anyway, I'd just like to be sure that the patch bay is a working solution. I presume that it won't degrade the signal (it's passive), and the stereo Jack connectors shouldn't be a problem either (we'd use '2xRCA to stereo Jack' cables to connect both the DACs and the amps to the rear of the patch bay).

 

[Robbo99999]

Oratory probably thought it wasn't necessary to use more than 6 filters for the HD660s, it's possible that he thought a sharp boost filters at 4.7kHz and 7kHz would be potentially detrimental (I'm thinking ringing, although I don't know much about that). Narrow dips if they don't cover a wide frequency range are less noticeable too, so less reason to try to fix them, although I do prefer not to see them, which is why I like the HD600 curve better than the HD660s. Also the further you go up the frequency scale the less reliable the curve is to fit anyone individual's ear/HRTF, so sharp EQ changes at high frequencies could be making problems or worsening problems for people whose HRTF does not fit the average.

Your cable/patch solution seems fine to me then.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Wow, I didn't realize that we can now get a pair of HD600 for 290 €, whereas the HD660s cost at least 446 € Maybe I should reconsider. I've read some comments online and indeed people tend to prefer the HD600, or worst case scenario they find them both equivalent. If the HD660s isn't a clear winner, maybe I shouldn't pay 150 € more just to get it.

I love this thread because it's forcing me to reconsider some of the (wrong) things I was thinking at the very beginning. I apologize if it's a bit boring for some of the experts around here, but for me it's really helpful. Thanks to all of you for wanting to help.

UPDATED SHORTLIST WITH CURRENT EUROPEAN PRICES :

• Electrostatic, Open (1) :
  • Koss ESP/95X (and its energizer) --> about 400 € (lowest price : $270 for the EU warehouse sale)
• Planar, Open (1) :
  • Hifiman Sundara --> 350 € (lowest price : 307 €)
• Dynamic, Closed (1) :
  • Neumann NDH20 (caution : mixed reviews + not easy to find a replacement cable) --> 500 € (lowest price : 400 €)
• Dynamic, Semi-Open (1) :
  • Audioquest Nighthawk Carbon (caution : colored) --> 250 € (lowest price)
• Dynamic, Open (3) :
  • Sennheiser HD600 (probably a better choice/deal than the HD660s) --> 290 € (lowest price)
  • Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro --> 400 € (lowest price)
  • Audio-Technica ATH-AD2000X (caution : fixed cable) --> 450 € (on eBay, new)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• Discarded for various reasons (8) :
  • Audio-Technica ATH-AD1000X
  • Audio-Technica ATH-A2000Z
  • Grado RS-1
  • Beyerdynamic Amiron Home : less balanced and neutral than the DT1990 Pro
  • Philips Fidelio X2HR : there may be better choices in this list
  • NAD HP50 : discontinued apparently
  • Sennheiser HD660s : the HD600 are a better deal currently, and they have better EQ potential
  • Monolith M1060 : if we're comparing planars, the Sundara seem to be better overall
• Too expensive at the moment (4) :
  • Hifiman Ananda
  • Audeze LCD2 Classic
  • Sennheiser HD800
  • Denon AH-D7200

There are now 7 headphones in the "must listen to if I can" list. Maybe the added pricing info could help discarding some more, because I doubt I can listen to them all... Also, maybe I was wrong to consider "2 and only 2" headphones for 1 K€, because I didn't account for the promotions. Obviously I can't get them all, but maybe I could get 3 headphones on this list for about 1 K€ and still be happy. People like @solderdude will think that I was unclear or even wrong about my starting choices, and I'll gladly apologize in that case. "it is wise to rectify", right ?

Oh, one more reason why I can hardly trust my ears in a listening session in a shop : the headphones won't be EQed in a shop, while at my home they will be. So one bad-sounding can in the shop could actually sound great at home. Best thing would probably be to buy them and listen to them at home, then to return them if that's allowed, or to sell them online.

Anyway, what do you guys think price-wise?

 

[Robbo99999]

Well for NAD HP50 there's some places you can get them, I got mine imported from the USA to the UK via Amazon and I got mine for £159 which I think is a pretty good deal, I bought mine earlier this year. You live somewhere in France, you could get some imported from the USA or from the French Amazon: https://www.amazon.fr/NAD-VISO-Hp70-sans-Casque-Réducteur/dp/B079LXH6NX/ref=sr_1_10?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=NAD+Viso+HP50&qid=1599993456&sr=8-10
EDIT: Sorry, that's the HP70 headphone, yes looks like it's difficult to get hold of HP50.
That's more expensive than how I got mine though. I might be a bit dubious about buying HP50 for 400 Euro considering I got mine for 170 Euro equivalent.

I think if you're gonna get two headphones with complementary & different positive properties then I think you should get an open dynamic headphone as one of them for the soundstage, etc, and I think you should then get a closed back. HD600 seems like a no-brainer to me given the price and the solid reputation over the years from lots of individuals/reviewers here & elsewhere. I've never listened to a Planar headphone so can't really recommend that you get an example of one of those or not to compliment say the HD600. For closed back your Neumann seemed fine, but you'd need to listen to some members who are closed back experts with experience with different pairs. I know people like the K371 but it's not perfect in the treble, although I did do an EQ for that one that fixes the treble better than Oratory's EQ and also fits the bass more accurately....I was bored one day and did this EQ for another member on this site (this EQ is using Oratory's measurement and I've EQ'd it manually to the Harman Curve):
EQ for AKG K371:

K371 is also a very good value headphone.

 

[solderdude]

People like @solderdude will think that I was unclear or even wrong about my starting choices,

Nope I didn't think you were wrong nor unclear about your choices at all, nor do people like me.

I merely wanted to know what you meant with 'complementary yet different' it was puzzling to me.

Anyway, what do you guys think price-wise?

I think your choices are all in the same price/quality range.
To go 'better' or perhaps should say 'different' you would have to enter the +1k range.

 

[endrus]

UPDATED SHORTLIST WITH CURRENT EUROPEAN PRICES

The more you think about it the more complex it gets. There are no headphones without compromises...

If I were you I would shortlist 3 for listening tests - which is already obvious from your list (at least for me)
Hifiman Sundara
Sennheiser HD600
Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro

Suspend reading reviews, do as many listening tests as you can, make notes based on feelings, enjoyment and pull the trigger. Also I advise against buying two units at one go. It would limit you in discovering the chosen one in its full potential.
Whichever you choose give it 2-3 months of listening or better enough time to discover their shortcomings so you would be clear what complementary headphone you want next...

Don't try to buy the best for your money just buy the one you enjoy the most. How do you know it's good for you? It gives you satisfaction every time you listen or OMG compare it to a friend's unit.

Just my thoughts

P.S.: There was an article on modern consumerism that stated the mankind of modern society is lacking self confidence and reviews are the form of self assurance for many. Few buyers still go back to reviews long after their purchases to reassure their decisions. 30-day return policies are also controversial in this regard as there is always something that is better. You keep going down the rabbit hole chasing perfectionism and forget enjoying the music / product.
There is nothing wrong doing your research but the time spent on research shall be proportional to the future enjoyment that the product is likely to provide. You need to know when to cut off. (don't take it personal it's general remark for educational purposes!)

 

[Robbo99999]

I actually think you should buy them all at the same time to compare, I think it's a bad move to acclimatise to a headphone over a few weeks as your mind will get used to almost any flavour of sound from a headphone, even bad ones.....so I think it's imperative to have a few to compare during the same session on the same tracks, it's the only way you're gonna know if one is better than the other and which parts of the track they emphasise & bring out, and also which headphones overall have the best balance between all elements of the track. Then return the headphones you don't like.

I would also take pains to EQ each headphone to the same target curve so you can truly see the inherent advantages of each headphone. But do listen to them briefly without any EQ first, but I think it's wise to EQ them really quite quickly during your evaluation phase rather than spending a long time listening to them at stock. This is particularly relevant if you know the Harman Headphone Curve is an accurate fit for you.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks for your good advice guys
I'm only surprised that you seem to be leaving aside the Nighthawk Carbon I am this close to buying them for two reasons :

• Because they seem to be a really good deal for only 250 € (some people say they're the deal of the century at that price)
• Because they're supposedly very different from, say, a pair of Sundara or even HD600/DT1990 Pro. Which to me would mean complementary.
• On the minus side, they're not neutral at all. But I guess I don't want all my cans to be neutral, right ?

I mean, is nobody going to like the Nighthawk Carbon, even at only 250 € ?

 

[endrus]

Thanks for your good advice guys
I'm only surprised that you seem to be leaving aside the Nighthawk Carbon

"In audiophile communities, people either love or hate this headphone." - It's a bit of a risky take, you should understand that. Let's see which camp will you be in...

 

[Robbo99999]

Thanks for your good advice guys
I'm only surprised that you seem to be leaving aside the Nighthawk Carbon I am this close to buying them for two reasons :

• Because they seem to be a really good deal for only 250 € (some people say they're the deal of the century at that price)
• Because they're supposedly very different from, say, a pair of Sundara or even HD600/DT1990 Pro. Which to me would mean complementary.
• On the minus side, they're not neutral at all. But I guess I don't want all my cans to be neutral, right ?

I mean, is nobody going to like the Nighthawk Carbon, even at only 250 € ?

About neutrality, I don't think you want any of your headphones to be not neutral....if you know you like the Harman Headphone Curve then there is no reason to deviate from that, and the Harman Headphone Curve is neutral apart from a bit of a bass boost from around 100Hz downwards....which was a result of their preference studies, and scientifically I think the reason for that boost is that bass in headphones has to be slightly more boosted than speakers because you don't get the physical body sensations of low bass from headphones so it's boosted a bit more than it would be for speakers to kind of make up for that loss of body sensation......also Harman studies show that people generally prefer a downward sloping frequency response in a speaker in a room, so a bass boost on a headphone goes towards creating that downwards slope.

Yes, there's not really any reason to buy a coloured / non-neutral headphone because you normally want the recorded music to come through as intended by the artist & recording engineer. And besides, you'll be EQ'ing your headphone to the Harman Curve by the sounds of it, you seem to like the Harman Curve (I get the impression), so there's no point just leaving a coloured headphone in your arsenal....you'd EQ it anyway.....the only reason you'd buy a headphone that happened to be heavily coloured was because it had other excellent positive qualities like soundstage / bass extension / low distortion, and then you'd EQ it to make it perfect.

 

[Jimbob54]

Wow, I didn't realize that we can now get a pair of HD600 for 290 €, whereas the HD660s cost at least 446 € Maybe I should reconsider. I've read some comments online and indeed people tend to prefer the HD600, or worst case scenario they find them both equivalent. If the HD660s isn't a clear winner, maybe I shouldn't pay 150 € more just to get it.

I love this thread because it's forcing me to reconsider some of the (wrong) things I was thinking at the very beginning. I apologize if it's a bit boring for some of the experts around here, but for me it's really helpful. Thanks to all of you for wanting to help.

UPDATED SHORTLIST WITH CURRENT EUROPEAN PRICES :

• Electrostatic (1) :
  • Koss ESP/95X (and its energizer) --> about 400 € (lowest price : $270 for the EU warehouse sale)
• Planar (1) :
  • Hifiman Sundara --> 350 € (lowest price : 307 €)
• Closed dynamic (2) :
  • Neumann NDH20 (caution : mixed reviews + not easy to find a replacement cable) --> 500 € (lowest price : 400 €)
  • Audio-Technica ATH-AD2000X (caution : fixed cable) --> 450 € (on eBay, new)
• Semi-open dynamic (1) :
  • Audioquest Nighthawk Carbon (caution : colored) --> 250 € (lowest price, only a few left apparently)
• Open dynamic (2) :
  • Sennheiser HD600 (probably a better choice/deal than the HD660s) --> 290 € (lowest price)
  • Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro --> 400 € (lowest price)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• Discarded for various reasons (5) :
  • Beyerdynamic Amiron Home : less balanced and neutral than the DT1990 Pro
  • Philips Fidelio X2HR : there may be better choices in this list
  • NAD HP50 : discontinued apparently
  • Sennheiser HD660s : the HD600 are a better deal currently, and they have better EQ potential
  • Monolith M1060 : if we're comparing planars, the Sundara seem to be better overall
• Too expensive at the moment (4) :
  • Hifiman Ananda
  • Audeze LCD2 Classic
  • Sennheiser HD800
  • Denon AH-D7200

There are now 7 headphones in the "must listen to if I can" list. Maybe the added pricing info could help discarding some more, because I doubt I can listen to them all... Also, maybe I was wrong to consider "2 and only 2" headphones for 1 K€, because I didn't account for the promotions. Obviously I can't get them all, but maybe I could get 3 headphones on this list for about 1 K€ and still be happy. People like @solderdude will think that I was unclear or even wrong about my starting choices, and I'll gladly apologize in that case. "it is wise to rectify", right ?

Oh, one more reason why I can hardly trust my ears in a listening session in a shop : the headphones won't be EQed in a shop, while at my home they will be. So one bad-sounding can in the shop could actually sound great at home. Best thing would probably be to buy them and listen to them at home, then to return them if that's allowed, or to sell them online.

Anyway, what do you guys think price-wise?

The ATH AD2000x are the open back. Confusingly the ATH A2000Z are the closed back (silvery cups). I believe I recommended the open back- if I misquoted the model numbers i apologise

 

[Robbo99999]

I don't like the frequency response of the ATH A2000Z closed back:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lqkjauui3xdoen/Audio Technica ATH-A2000Z.pdf?dl=0
Treble is a bit barmy and less fixable and not much bass extension either, gotta have bass extension for a closed back, missed opportunity!

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

The ATH AD2000x are the open back. Confusingly the ATH A2000Z are the closed back (silvery cups). I believe I recommended the open back- if I misquoted the model numbers i apologise

You are absolutely right. The reference was good (ATH-AD2000X), but it was in the wrong category. I have edited the updated shortlist.

 

[Jimbob54]

I don't like the frequency response of the ATH A2000Z closed back:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lqkjauui3xdoen/Audio Technica ATH-A2000Z.pdf?dl=0
Treble is a bit barmy and less fixable and not much bass extension either, gotta have bass extension for a closed back, missed opportunity!

You should see the W5000 that I have - oddest HP ever- rewarding if you can tame them- but yes, Tyll panned the silver ones.

 

[Robbo99999]

You should see the W5000 that I have - oddest HP ever- rewarding if you can tame them- but yes, Tyll panned the silver ones.

They're ATH too? They're not in Oratory's list, was gonna look at the frequency response out of curiosity.

 

[Jimbob54]

They're ATH too? They're not in Oratory's list, was gonna look at the frequency response out of curiosity.

Yup- Auto EQ has it- https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/search?q=w5000&unscoped_q=w5000

I basically take a scoop out of the mid range and bump the bass and also put some big pads on that let them stay on your ears

 

[Robbo99999]

Yup- Auto EQ has it- https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/search?q=w5000&unscoped_q=w5000

I basically take a scoop out of the mid range and bump the bass and also put some big pads on that let them stay on your ears

And the treble looks a bit messed up:
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Au...harman_over-ear_2018/Audio-Technica ATH-W5000

 

[Jimbob54]

And the treble looks a bit messed up:
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/innerfidelity/innerfidelity_harman_over-ear_2018/Audio-Technica ATH-W5000

Cant even remember what I do there- the point being, there is more to HP than a standard FR or EQ to a standard target- its possible to have different but good.