'1K€ for TWO DIFFERENT pairs of headphones' Challenge

[Jose Hidalgo]

Hi everyone,

I was thinking of this project for 2021, but it looks like I can achieve it sooner, which is great news !
So here's the challenge : to buy not one but two great sounding, versatile, and hopefully complementary pairs of headphones, for about 1K€ total.
The goal is to replace and improve my old pair of Sony MDR CD1000 (if some of you still remember them) and a pair of Oneodio Studio Pro-50, lol.

The audio chain, as some of you already know, is as follows :
PC (foobar2000) --> USB --> Topping E30 --> RCA splitter --> 2 x Topping L30 --> 2 pairs of headphones

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Possible headphone candidates include :

• Neumann NDH20 (499 €) : best closed monitoring headphones for the budget ? At least subjectively that's what Z says...
• Hifiman Sundara (349 €) : planar headphones with a great price/quality ratio ? (plus apparently the bass roll-off below 50 Hz has been improved by the new pads : https://www.headphones.com/blogs/news/sennheiser-hd660s-vs-hifiman-sundara )
• Sennheiser HD660s (447 €) : they have some great reviews on their own, but they seem to be surpassed by the Sundara. Are they ?
• Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro (442 €) : maybe not as good as the other candidates, but it may be a matter of taste ?
• ... other worthy candidates ?

There are lots of reviews of all these headphones online, but most of them are subjective. Still, they are informative and I can be tempted to trust people with a lot of listening experience who compare headphones on a weekly basis. But even so, I'm not sure there's a clear winner among the candidates.

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This challenge is tricky because I have to pick 2 headphones among 3 technologies : electrodynamic closed, electrodynamic open, and planar.

As for my music taste, I really am into everything, so I don't want "specialized" headphones. For example I'm not a bass-head and I won't listen to loud Hip-Hop until I'm half-deaf, lol. I like a little bit of everything. But having two complementary pairs of headphones would allow me to pick the best one for every piece of music.

What do you think ?

PS : I have some Hi-Fi resellers in my area that I can visit for some listening appointments. However I'm not sure I would trust my ears for such short auditions (I guess a pair of headphones requires hours if not days of relaxed listening to make up your mind). Not to mention that the reseller's audio chain would not be the same as mine.

 

[solderdude]

You'll probably get a lot of recommendations...
Their ears and preferences may differ from yours.

There is no substitute or listening yourself.
And yes, some headphones do sound great at first and may be annoying later.
Some headphones are underwhelming at first but turn out to be gems after all.

So try to audition... and when they disappoint after a while sell them and try something else.

 

[Vini darko]

For a grand I'd go for a electrostat and a dynamic. Probably try to get hold of drop hd58x since thats a hd660s for cheap. That would leave the lions share for a real nice elecotrostat . Maybe some second hand stax. But it's not my money so easy to suggest second hand. If were my money I'd be nervous buying second hand.

 

[Jimbob54]

Not sure about second hand prices vs brands in your region, but I'd go for an Audeze LCD2 Classic as a planar open back then see if you cant get a Sennheiser HD800 as a dynamic. Both second hand- they were both around £500 here in the UK so you might get for E1000 the pair.

 

[Cahudson42]

What do you think ?

Why not consider adding DSP PEQ to the mix? You might be able to optimize the PEQ profile(s) for different music - possibly for a single pair of HP, allowing more HP choices within the budget.

Most interesting to me right at the moment is - should I be considering the 100$ Qudelix (via USB, I' ve zero interest in BT except for it's app connection) for my HE400i? No amir review yet - but the DAC seems a decent choice..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088F7C976/

FWIW you will want to keep your L30 if my experience with the designers prior es100 is any indicator for this... which was sent back for definitely bring underpowered for HE400i ..

PS - I am so anti-PC anywhere in my chain that I failed to notice - you could simply add Equalizer APO/Mathaudio back at the PC as a no-additional-hardware alternate for your PEQ...

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks guys

Well, I won't go for second hands, I should have mentioned that. I want to try to make these headphones last, so I won't take any risks.

The Sundara really look tempting because of their killer performance/price ratio (probably the best planars up to 620 € which is the price for their big brothers, the Ananda). I haven't seen a single bad review on the Sundara, it looks like you can't go wrong with them. Maybe I should just have a good listen just to be sure, buy them first, and then decide on what I want as second headphone.

@Cahudson42, why are you anti-PC? I'd like to understand, since for me it's the best possible source for many reasons.
Yes, PEQ is an option (there is already one within foobar2000 - disabled by default of course).
Crossfeed DSP is also an option (read about it here: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm )
Those are two of the many advantages of having a PC as source.

 

[Cahudson42]

Why are you anti-PC?

It's a personal bias. If you are happy with a PC in your chain, Great! For myself, having had to deal with M$ Windows from Win 3, Win 95, Win 98, NT, Win 2000 and everything else to Win 10, I clench my teeth and suppress a vomit everytime I boot my PC. So I never want to see it in my audio systems if at all possible.

FWIW - if I were to be looking at replacing my HE400i, I would also be looking closely at the Sundara. But right now I am perfectly happy with my current HE400i, and an SHP9500 for casual TV etc. - because it is sooo comfortable.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I think I'll definitely be getting the Sundara for 350 €, which leaves me about 650 € for the other one.
The problem is that according to many reviews, none of the 3 other cans in my list seem to be a match for the Sundara !
And I don't want to pay 500 € for a pair of headphones that ultimately wouldn't be nearly as good as the 350 € Sundara.

So the question would be: what could I find for 650 € that would be "as good as" the Sundara but at the same time different and complementary? (that would probably mean no planars)

I could of course buy a second Sundara and be happy with my GF, but I think it would be better to have different headphones.

 

[solderdude]

The question arises what is complementary ?
A closed version of ? Different comfort ?
Did you hear the Sundara ?
Why a second different headphone and not a bunch or none ?
Why not spend the total amount on one headphone that may sound better than the Sundara ?
There are so many good headphones around that differ from each other... You can also EQ the crap out of them.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

But do these questions bring anything to the subject? I'd like this topic to stay focused, please. Quickly about your "why" questions: because my GF and I are two people, and we want two headphones. Not one, not ten. Just two. I hope that makes sense.

Also, this topic is meant to be only about sound qualities. Not about comfort, looks, build quality or magical properties.
To me "complementary" means "different technology". So, not a second pair of planars (unless it was a second pair of Sundara). It also means "being better than the Sundara on some criteria (or on some type of music), and possibly worse on other criteria / music".

I've already talked about listening to headphones in a shop, and YES, we will indeed. I have already a list of shops in our area. But :

1. I don't want to go listen to ONLY the Sundara. I need to have at least a real second candidate within the 650 € range, so I can make an appointment with the shop, ask specifically to listem to both of them, and try to draw my own conclusions (is the second one better? worse? is it worth the money? etc.).
   
   
2. Honestly I won't trust my ears in such environment (different audio chain, seller pressure) and over such a short period of time (I would need hours to make up my mind). So I am 99,9% certain that I will buy the Sundara anyway. They would need to sound VERY bad to my ears for me not to get them, and I'm pretty sure that they won't. Plus I could always sell them for a good price if I'm not happy with them. They're risk-free.

So my previous question lies, and that's where I would like this topic to go at this moment. Thank you.

 

[solderdude]

That explains 2 headphones and what you mean by complementary.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

If you don't know how to answer my question, I understand and I'm not forcing you to do anything.
If you have any question that could help you answer my question, feel free to ask.
Although I think it's clear and it could even be a topic on its own: "650 K€ for a second pair of headphones for a Sundara owner".

 

[Jimbob54]

I think I'll definitely be getting the Sundara for 350 €, which leaves me about 650 € for the other one.
The problem is that according to many reviews, none of the 3 other cans in my list seem to be a match for the Sundara !
And I don't want to pay 500 € for a pair of headphones that ultimately wouldn't be nearly as good as the 350 € Sundara.

So the question would be: what could I find for 650 € that would be "as good as" the Sundara but at the same time different and complementary? (that would probably mean no planars)

I could of course buy a second Sundara and be happy with my GF, but I think it would be better to have different headphones.

OK- for a completely different approach , and because you are not concerned in the slightest with fit, comfort etc- the best Audio Technica AD series you can get for your money. And some Brainwavs XL pads to go with them.

 

[solderdude]

I don't know how to answer your original question because:
A: I don't know the CD1000 nor the Oneodio
B: I don't know your taste
C: I don't know where you want the headphones to differ and how much
D: I don't know why comfort and quality are not important
E: I see no reason to prefer a Planar over a dynamic
F: I see you wanting to choose between open and closed while these have different use cases.
G: I don't know the NDH20 (dark sounding it seems)
H: Z's opinion is well erm his not so expert opinion. Sometimes funny to watch.
I: Sundara, HD660S and DT1990 are quite different headphones
J: I wouldn't say the HD660S is surpassed by the Sundara and personally think the Senn is the better one.
K: That said you may prefer the Sundara.
L: There are other options
M: I don't know what your taste in sound is nor that of the GF

Take your time with auditioning. The stereo used in the shop is not going to impart sound nor will the Toppings. The chosen music will. Take your own music along. You should hear within 2 songs if you like the signature or not.
When comparing play them about equally loud. Switch from A to B and back to A.
A headphone that starts impressive may not be the best choice, a headphone that seems not impressive may turn out to be the better one.
Don't (get) rushed into buying one. Let the GF decide what she likes.

Listen to various headphones... think ... listen again ... familiar music

 

[Cahudson42]

@Jose Hidalgo

He is always too modest to mention it, but , on the off chance you don't know, @solderdude runs one the the most through and objective headphone sites around:

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/

 

[solderdude]

Should you value my subjective opinion for the below HP's they are here:
Sundara, HD660S and DT1990

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

@Jimbob54 , thanks. Apparently for my budget I could get either an ATH-AD1000X (Open) for 600 €, or a ATH-A2000Z (Closed) for 550 €. I know nothing about them so we'll see.

@solderdude , thanks. Don't take it personally, I mean no harm here. I will value your subjective opinion just as I value any other subjective opinions like Z and other reviewers. All opinions matter, but very few matter more than the others.

With that said, some of your questions/comments are definitely irrelevant, because it's not essential for you to understand everything here. You don't have to, and I'm not asking you to. Here's some examples:

• "D: I don't know why comfort and quality are not important": but you don't have to know why! Maybe I don't care. Maybe I'm masochist. Maybe I don't listen for more than half an hour before taking the cans off. Could be lots of things. But that is my problem.
• "E: I see no reason to prefer a Planar over a dynamic": all right, but you won't be the one wearing them. Of course you are free to explain people like this one why dynamic cans are better, and why the 660s are better than the Sundara. I'm just saying that people are allowed to have different opinions. Please deal with them before dealing with me, I'm just nobody. This topic isn't here to debate on what are the best cans, but merely to get some useful recommendations, which I'm getting, thank you very much everyone.

I also agree that Z's opinion doesn't make him an expert. If I believed anything he says just by watching his vids, I'd already have a pair of NDH20 and a pair of HD660s, since his reviews of them were... well, you know how they were. But at least the guy is passionate, funny to watch, and he gives me ideas, because at least I'm curious to listen to some of the cans he reviewed like the NDH20 (which you haven't reviewed yet BTW).

With that said, I'm glad that you say that "J: I wouldn't say the HD660S is surpassed by the Sundara and personally think the Senn is the better one.". Your opinion is clearly VERY different from the guy I just linked from "The HEADPHONE show", but that's good. It gives me more reasons to go listen to the HD660s and maybe get them. Oh, and at least on that pair of cans you seem to agree with Z, so there's that. Maybe you both love the Senn sound!

About auditioning, we definitely agree. I've done auditioning before so I know how it works. I always bring my reference songs with me. Back in time I used to bring CDs. Now I guess I should bring FLAC/WAV on a USB stick.

 

[Jimbob54]

@Jimbob54 , thanks. Apparently for my budget I could get either an ATH-AD1000X (Open) for 600 €, or a ATH-A2000Z (Closed) for 550 €. I know nothing about them so we'll see.

Zeos has reviewed several Audio Technica- including I believe the 1000 open and the 2000 closed - so thats a starter for 10 if you want to look. The AD2000 (not the ATH2000 closed) hold a special place in his heart.

Leftfield suggestion- Grado RS1

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Zeos has reviewed several Audio Technica- including I believe the 1000 open and the 2000 closed - so thats a starter for 10 if you want to look. The AD2000 (not the ATH2000 closed) hold a special place in his heart.

You're right. The ATH-AD2000X are within my budget, since they can be bought on eBay (new) for about 450 € incl. shipping. In french shops they're like 1000 €, that's crazy, lol.
I've found that Z review you have mentioned.
Too bad it's an older one, so he didn't get to compare them to more recent cans like the 660s.
The RS1 is way too expensive, lol. Plus I'd prefer over-ear (or at least big pads) rather than on-ear. Maybe I should have mentioned that from the start, sorry.

 

[bobbooo]

Koss ESP/95X