PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

not so in the audio-world, because people... ZU audio is a prime example of HORRID speakers selling like hotcakes. i dont believe good measuring products are selling more than others either.
listen to Steve Guttenberg with decades of listening experience: "i dont believe in measurements" yes that dilution can continue forever.

lol, good 'ol Steve G. Listening to that guy wax philosophically about this or that speaker's "richness" and "juiciness" and "sweetness" compared to that other speaker he listened to a few months back is highly entertaining!

 

[Thomas savage]

Can we get back on topic please

 

[th0m]

Interesting. I had a pair of PMC TB2i Signature's for years and quite liked them. I bought a pair of demo units for half price that ended up getting damaged during shipping. The store took them back and replaced them with brand new ones (score!), so when I sold them I pretty much got my money back.

 

[Verloc]

I really don’t see why it’s necessary for some to pile in with ‘fool/audiofool’ comments.

Some people just want to go into a hifi shop and buy a ‘perceived‘ top pair of speakers, unfortunately without a way to discern what is ‘top’. What does then help is if those speakers look the part, have a pro label and have a salesman that gets a good whack from the manufacturer/supplier - I believe PMC are quite aggressive with targets. It’s PMC that should be the target and those that push them, not the unsuspecting ‘audiofool’. I’ve had the bullshit of a salesman sitting next to me saying ‘ah yes, much clearer/deeper/organic/magical...’ after turning the volume up a notch or two.

Also, I do disagree with the premise that because these speakers are 2 generations old they can be excused appalling measurements and consequently sound quality. If I hadn’t already heard some of their speakers before I’d certainly be very wary now. It is only one datum however.

 

[Pluto]

Studio 99 was somewhere else

Swiss Cottage

 

[The Alchemist]

I have been building IPL Acoustics Transmission Lines for many years now so I was very interested in the review of the PMC's. It it my belief that Ivan Leslie's speakers are an interesting alternative to the PMC's and offer fantastic VFM for those that have the ability to build them. I wonder how many people have heard of IPL and, if anyone has heard them, what is their perception of the sound quality?

 

[ScofieldKid]

Yes, I am. I'll explain why. I demo'd them at a dealer with my own amp and cables. Frankly, they were very good. The unknown variable is my own listening room. The next step is to demo them at home along with my other shortlister, the ATC SCM19. I hate to see those measurements just like the rest of you. However, that cannot account for my ears, my room and my amplification. I am 56 years old and have been "sick" with audiophilia nervosa since age 13 or 14. I have owned and parted ways with Magnepan, Martin Logan, Sonus faber to name but a few, powered by tubes and transistors. Now as life progresses and priorities shift and change I am indeed downsizing this particular system (1 of 4 at home). I will know what sounds right to me when I hear it, irrespective of good or bad lab measurements. So yes, facing a certain dilemma that is very time-consuming!
Brgds.

Yeah, this thread is some great information. But anyway, I own these, and love them. I have a pair of Thiel CS 3.6's in the living room, and lots of other stuff sitting around. There are certain things I really like about these. I could compare to KEF LS-50's as well, which have their own problems. But I do tend to like stuff in the Seas Excel drivers family. Paradigm Studio 100's are the benchmark for all things, IMHO, so you can start with those... The Salk Song 3's would be an interesting speaker to hear, given enough money.

 

[Willem]

Somehow I missed that one. I confess I've never heard a Harbeth but get the feeling that the LS3/5a-sized ones are probably the best.

Sadly this was a rather older model so not really representative of current offerings. I like my Harbeth P3ESRs as desktop speakers. They are a lot better than the improved 11 Ohm LS3/5as that I used before. I also tried them with a sub in a large room and that sounded very convincing even though it could obviously not move quite as much air as a bigger speaker.

 

[BikeSmith60]

Yeah, this thread is some great information. But anyway, I own these, and love them. I have a pair of Thiel CS 3.6's in the living room, and lots of other stuff sitting around. There are certain things I really like about these. I could compare to KEF LS-50's as well, which have their own problems. But I do tend to like stuff in the Seas Excel drivers family. Paradigm Studio 100's are the benchmark for all things, IMHO, so you can start with those... The Salk Song 3's would be an interesting speaker to hear, given enough money.

Hi Scofieldkid,
When you wrote "I own these" which speakers were you referring to?
Thanks.

 

[ScofieldKid]

Hi Scofieldkid,
When you wrote "I own these" which speakers were you referring to?
Thanks.

Ah, the PMC Twenty.21. Given the reviews that Amir has been doing here, I would be sorely tempted to try out the Revel M16. It seems like Revel really hits the price/performance curve well. But I haven't heard those.

 

[miike888]

Gee whiz. You sure do come to definitive conclusions is a hurry. Was that with or without actually hearing them make sound, which is what transducers do? Secondly, if every happy PMC owner learned you consider them to be "fools" they may have some choice adjectives for your good self. I agree that the measurements presented are indeed dismal. However, in today's Western capitalist marketplace any company regularly proposing poorly-designed products would neither survive nor gain legions of customers. I have personally heard the Twenty5 22 on my amplification and cables last week. I detected no major flaws or niggles that would dissuade me from acquiring them. I am neither for or against PMC just brutally subjective in determining what sounds good to me or not. I am not pleased with the measurements presented here of a 2-generation old PMC speaker but if in the end it outperforms, in my room, the ATC SCM19 then I will not have a problem with acquiring them.
Brgds.

Hi!

so do you mean that because you listen in a wrong way(not blind) does that make this crappy speaker better?

And you say ” in my room” does your room make crappy sprakers sound good?

I have to say.....maybe you should read Floyds book or something about the science of sound reproduction.

//Mike

 

[CDMC]

However, in today's Western capitalist marketplace any company regularly proposing poorly-designed products would neither survive nor gain legions of customers.
Brgds.

You are kidding, right? The economic concept of pricing depends on rational consumers that obtain and use easily available information. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of consumers are neither 1) rational, or 2) for the most part willing to perform quantifiable research to identify fair value. This leads to premium pricing, where manufactures charge a higher price, solely for the purpose of creating exclusivity and/or increased perceived value.

Just a few examples in the audio industry:

1) Bose- Bose does it on the lower end of the scale, but they sell a lifestyle. Their products are cost 2 to 3 times what the equivalent and often better products cost from competitors.

2) Wilson Audio- Selling an extremely highly priced product using off the shelf drivers. IIRC, they made the first over $100,000 speakers. Now they have a model that is $685,000. There are an amazing number of speakers over $100,000. Some are terrible, but people purchase them because they look cool and cost more their their neighbor's speakers. https://www.whathifi.com/us/features/11-worlds-most-expensive-loudspeakers This isn't a superior product, not when Revel's most expensive product is $20,000 and Dynaudio's is $80,000.

3) Amplifiers- There are countless $100,000 plus amplifiers that have poor performance. https://www.whathifi.com/us/features/11-worlds-most-expensive-loudspeakers

4) Cables- Don't even get me started, $10,000 power cables and $40,000 speaker cables that functionally offer nothing over their less than $100 counterparts.

 

[CDMC]

OK but repeat customers and brand fidelity are never obtained by hawking garbage to an unsuspecting public.

Two brands: Jaguar and Land Rover. Need I say more.

 

[BikeSmith60]

Hi!

so do you mean that because you listen in a wrong way(not blind) does that make this crappy speaker better?

And you say ” in my room” does your room make crappy sprakers sound good?

I have to say.....maybe you should read Floyds book or something about the science of sound reproduction.

//Mike

Good thing you chimed in to clear things up. Congrats.

 

[Deleted member 16502]

Wow, this is once again proof that you can no trust any but some very few manufacturers. I wonder how their pro stuff measures, I would never consider any unmeasured product from a manufacturer selling such junk, no matter if it's not intended for pro use.

 

[BikeSmith60]

You are kidding, right? The economic concept of pricing depends on rational consumers that obtain and use easily available information. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of consumers are neither 1) rational, or 2) for the most part willing to perform quantifiable research to identify fair value. This leads to premium pricing, where manufactures charge a higher price, solely for the purpose of creating exclusivity and/or increased perceived value.

Just a few examples in the audio industry:

1) Bose- Bose does it on the lower end of the scale, but they sell a lifestyle. Their products are cost 2 to 3 times what the equivalent and often better products cost from competitors.

2) Wilson Audio- Selling an extremely highly priced product using off the shelf drivers. IIRC, they made the first over $100,000 speakers. Now they have a model that is $685,000. There are an amazing number of speakers over $100,000. Some are terrible, but people purchase them because they look cool and cost more their their neighbor's speakers. https://www.whathifi.com/us/features/11-worlds-most-expensive-loudspeakers This isn't a superior product, not when Revel's most expensive product is $20,000 and Dynaudio's is $80,000.

3) Amplifiers- There are countless $100,000 plus amplifiers that have poor performance. https://www.whathifi.com/us/features/11-worlds-most-expensive-loudspeakers

4) Cables- Don't even get me started, $10,000 power cables and $40,000 speaker cables that functionally offer nothing over their less than $100 counterparts.

Err no, not kidding. You examples are extremes that do not rely on volume to survive except for Bose whose poor to mediocre quality is apparently sufficient for the mass consumer. None of your examples can qualify as junk as some of them simply serve the egos of the ultra-rich. I don't think PMC is playing that game.

 

[carlosmante]

Remember that in the pro world they use extensive room treatment and EQ, if done correctly frequency response isn't anything like as important. But given the output from so many is so low there is little evidence they know what they are doing.

"there is little evidence they know what they are doing"?
they are making money.

 

[BikeSmith60]

Two brands: Jaguar and Land Rover. Need I say more.

Basically you are stating that subjectively you do not care for either of those manufacturers. Fair enough.

 

[McFly]

An ATC SCM19 is here for review.

Ohhhh boy ATC will be shaking in thier boots. Enjoyed the discussion on Transmission Lines mid-way through. It's a shame PMC couldn't pull it off for the objective crowd. Maybe folks who buy these are the older types with poor HF hearing, who demand home demos and have heavily damped/dead living/listening rooms with thick curtains, soft carpets and spongy old furniture from the 60's.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the review, @amirm. It looks like you forgot to attach the usual zipfile?

Sorry about that. Just added to the review.