Proposal: Right to Fair Review (RFR) Association

[Madcow]

Yes: See Bose vs. Consumers Union. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1983/82-1246

Exactly, malice is the key. If I post a video and say a product sucks and don’t buy it in my personal opinion am I going to get sued as a result? It happens ALL THE TIMEi watch videos and reviews Dailey no one is getting sued over their opinions.

 

[ItSoundsNatural01]

As many of you I am sure have followed, both Erin and I were hit with legal threats from a company post our reviews. Given the unfairness of the situation, many of you came to our defenses and provided incredible level of support both financially and in many other ways such as legal and business advice. While I have always had this risk in mind and had prepared for it in some ways, it was still major source of pain for me and especially for Erin. While this crisis is not fully over, I think we need to look to the future to see how we could be better prepared for it.

I propose that a new lightweight organization be created that I call Right to Fair Review (RFA) Association (RFAA). The things we need to cover in there are:

1. Education. What are the legal issues involved in writing independent reviews of products? What is the law exactly? What are the best practices for writing/creating video reviews as to lower chances of litigation? What to do when threat of litigation or actual litigation is occurring? Advice regarding incorporation, LLC, etc. You get the idea.

2. Access to a lawyer for initial consultation. I am thinking half hour talking to an attorney with knowledge of the field (audio in our case) would do a world of good. While I have great attorneys, they don't know audio so it would take me a lot to explain things to them while paying $500/hour. And even then, they may not fully understand the situation. We have member attorneys here that could do a far more efficient job in a 30 minute conversation than many hours with a general attorney.

To keep such expenses low, such consultation could be limited to say, 1 per year for ordinary members, with option to go higher levels and get more of this.

3. Insurance. The insurance market has hardly any products to offer for this type of defamation claim. They have policies to insure large newspapers and such but not necessarily for small independent reviewers. I know, I had my broker look for months for such a policy until they found one a few years ago. I paid them nearly $5000/year for the policy, just to have them write me a cold letter a couple of months ago saying they no longer wanted to offer such a product. The search continued and again took a couple of months for my broker to find another policy with similar cost.

The organization could do such a search and create a proper market for such a policy. Even the policy I found needs better customization as their application form had tons and tons of irrelevant questions that I had to fill out in order to be qualified.

4. Referral to legal firms situated to handle the proper defense should the case go to trial, etc.

5. I am thinking reviewers could sign up by paying reasonable yearly fees. I am thinking $100 to $300 per year. Organization would then rely on donations for rest of its operational budget.

6. Staff attorneys could have day jobs and take these calls after hours. They could be compensated per hour or through advertising for their firm.

7. Guidelines for company conduct could be created as far as how they approach reviewers with objections, issues. Then, they could be allowed to become members and have a seal of "fair review supporters" which they could display as being good citizens. So while the number of reviewers is small, this class could be quite large. We have already seen a number of companies speaking out in support of value of fair reviews of audio products.

8. This is a much larger goal but campaigning politically for specific laws to protect fair reviews as opposed to having old laws regarding defamation, etc. be repurposed to go after reviews.

9. Guidelines for reviews. Just as there will be some for manufacturers, there needs to be things that reviewers do to be in good standing with the organization. For example, posting manufacturer responses in reviews. Available contact information.

10. Ability to create arbitration to settle issues early and without much expense.

All of this said, there are down sides to such things as some orgs get the life of their own and wind up servicing themselves than their members, etc.

11. A private forum where like minded reviewers and members can exchange experiences and knowledge about this topic.

But here are my thoughts. What say you?

I hope we have good top-tier Lawyers in ASR forum .. or good Law/audiophiles who would consider helping this initiative! The audio/video industry has been shamelessly parasitically sucking the disposable income away from consumers! and now they are threat to our rights!

 

[ExUnoPlura]

Just a note: RFRA already has mindshare in the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 that was somewhat controversial at the time. But saying Riff-Rah is part of the lexicon in that context.

Hmmm, brainstorming...

Independent Audio Review Protection Association (IARPA)
Audio Reviewers Group (ARG) (! optional => ARG!)
Audio Review Society (ARS)
Association of Independent Audio Reviewers (AIAR)
Society of Unaffiliated Criticizers and Independent Testers (SUC-IT)
Exhaustive Audio Testers and Methodological Experimenters (EAT-ME)
Better Equipment that's Less Lousy Independent Society of Scientific Investigation Making Observations (BELLISIMO)

And I think the obvious things starting with F have been mentioned in the other thread...

 

[Eulipian]

Our speaker measurements are already an ANSI standard (CEA-2034 is). I explained this as my first response to Tekton. It made no difference to him.

There is ANSI accreditation for groups that maintain training regimes and adopt and apply technical standards. A membership group whose members have a certain skill, training or experience level, and who agree to apply specific standard procedures to audio testing could seek certification. Manufacturers would be allowed to refer the results if they agree to submit their equipment for testing without compensation.

Waivers of liability, arbitration agreements and the like present a sea of issues. One way of looking at it: any manufacturer who wants to earn the "Sheep of Approval" would sign a consent and waiver to factually accurate public reporting of results produced under the ANSI approved regime by the group member. Both manufacturer and reviewers would agree that the reviewers' subjective opinions would be identified as such--e.g., "I like Big Bass and I do not lie!"

It will not eliminate bullying by jerks who have performance anxiety about their equipment. So, it's like a burglar alarm: they deter the casual thieves. Professional assh*les will not be deterred. They have a plan to protect their markets by bullying. But, as Mike Tyson would say: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face." So, some sort of litigation contingency fund could still be necessary.

One more thought: an ANSI certified professional association may be able to obtain insurance that would cover threats like those under discussion. I am aware that liability policies typically exclude intentional acts and defamation, but I do not believe that the kind of threatening behavior under discussion falls within those exclusions. Others may disagree and I do not hold myself out as an expert in business tort litigation, so there's that.

So, a starting point might actually be to contact ANSI, who may know through its members, or insurers and see if there's coverage available for science based reports. Typically, the costs of defense also are covered.

All of this seems like building a bomb shelter for a bully with a BB gun, but that's how the world seems to be working nowadays.

 

[pablolie]

Not to derail, but this particular case is unfairly maligned as an example of stupid torts.

The woman got serious burns and was in the hospital for 8 days and never fully recovered. McDonald's knew their coffee was hot enough to cause injury (much hotter than most places held their coffee) but kept it at that temperature anyway.

There are plenty of stupid lawsuits out there, this particular one is just unfairly lumped in with them because it sounds silly at a superficial level.

You handle a hot drink, you don't spill it on yourself. At home or elsewhere. If you do, it's your own fault. Don't order a hot drink if you'd rather have a lukewarm one. Ask for icecubes in it. Over.

 

[Jimster480]

I think that this needs to happen even outside of audio products. The large companies are allowed to do literally anything they want at this point and release products which are unfinished, don't work properly or are straight up trash. Then they just beat the reviewers into submission because everything has to get a positive review.

 

[SnakeOil]

I think that this needs to happen even outside of audio products. The large companies are allowed to do literally anything they want at this point and release products which are unfinished, don't work properly or are straight up trash. Then they just beat the reviewers into submission because everything has to get a positive review.

It works both ways. Not all reviews are accurate. Restaurants get slandered on Yelp and other websites. Some of its deserved. Some looks to be out of spite. Lawsuits happen often. Both parties should be able to defend themselves. Reviews need to be able to call out Manufactures that mislead customers about their product. Also Manufactures should not bow down to a mob of sheep following there internet You Tube God. There needs to be a balance.

 

[Jimster480]

It works both ways. Not all reviews are accurate. Restaurants get slandered on Yelp and other websites. Some of its deserved. Some looks to be out of spite. Lawsuits happen often. Both parties should be able to defend themselves. Reviews need to be able to call out Manufactures that mislead customers about their product. Also Manufactures should not bow down to a mob of sheep following there internet You Tube God. There needs to be a balance.

You can never take Bias out of the equation. In the computer parts world it is over the top. Same in the car world. Fanboy brand w/ big marketing budget = best products ever. Flaws overlooked. Smaller brand without much marketing dollars = bad products / look elsewhere.

 

[rdenney]

You handle a hot drink, you don't spill it on yourself. At home or elsewhere. If you do, it's your own fault. Don't order a hot drink if you'd rather have a lukewarm one. Ask for icecubes in it. Over.

You’re in a drive-through. You ordered a drink and it was served at near boiling. Also, the lid wasn’t properly installed or it was ill-fitting so that the mere acting of taking it from the drive-through clerk caused it to pop off. It had been filled to the brim, and you were holding at an awkward angle (unlike at home). The person serving you bears no responsibility, and you should have expected being served injuriously hot drink in a cup that self-disassembled as you held it?

Facts matter. Was the above narrative factual? I don’t know, but most likely neither do you. That case was decided by a court probably because there was a significant injury and the court found an act of gross negligence and constructive knowledge of the defect (requirements in law in some states for tort liability).

We were not in the court and all we know of it is what we read in the press. For most of us all we know is what we heard in an outraged editorial.

Is America subject to excessive safetyism and a litigious bent? Probably. But the hot coffee case may not provide the example, and even if it did, we can’t claim a trend based on one case. That would be unscientific.

Accountability for torts and product defects is not a bad thing in principle.

Rick “respectfully submitted” Denney

 

[KSTR]

I find the whole idea of picking up food and hot drinks in a drive-through while you are in a car is... well... silly and simply barbarian. Treat your food respectfully and it won't fire back ;-)

 

[Cool Runnings]

Kurt Denke, the president of Blue Jeans, was a lawyer. He also faced a legal threat from Monster Cable and his public letter to them has become an urban legend. I don't know if he is still alive, but if so, perhaps he could provide some advice regarding this proposal.

Blue Jeans Cable Strikes Back - Response to Monster Cable

Not long ago we reported that Monster Cable had issued a cease and desist letter to Blue Jeans Cable about their Tartan cables. Little did the lawyer drones over at Monster know that Kurt Denke, the

www.audioholics.com

Thanks for this. Was a real pleasure and education reading Kurt Denke’s letter. Legendary is the right word for it.

Loads of respect to Amir and ASR community for coming together so strongly.

I hope common sense and science prevails.

It’s 2024 and well nigh time to get out of the dark ages of audiophilia.

 

[Labjr]

We could have a hall of fame and a hall shame sticky . And use the power of ASR’s reach ?
A little to much of cancel culture for my taste ? But maybe justified ?
I’m a bit unsure does not really like the walk of shame idea. Next time the mob is after you ?

But maybe like this , feel free to not like .

Don’t do business with these brands. With a short one line description on each .

Monster , Tekton . “Legal scare tactics, dangerous people” . Synergistic Research , Audiquest , “Fraudulent proponents of pseudoscience”

And do business with these brands with a like wise short justification in the other sticky.

KEF, Genelec, Neumann, Ascend , Sigberg . “god designs scientific approach, well documented”

About thirty years ago, I had a long telephone conversation with Ted Denney of Synergisic Research. He's a master BS artist. It was like listening to a cult leader. He talked about space particles, the planets and pixie dust. I swear he was making it up as he spoke. Back in the day there was no internet. Only publications and shows etc. So it was more difficult to find the truth about audiophile stuff.

 

[PaPoMusik]

To the lawyers out there…how many hours of time would it take to put that letter together? He was in a unique position of not having to write a check for it, but I think people forget that the cost of admission can be eye-wateringly high when these get going. However, discovery is the great equalizer, as the costs ramp way up for both so calling the bluff is often all that is required.

That said, some personalities don’t see options that involve taking their foot off the gas, so you can’t always expect rational decisions when someone comes at you with lawyers.

Interview with Kurt Denke, the man who shut "Monster Cable" up

freesoftwaremagazine.com

Interview with Kurt Denke, the man who shut "Monster Cable" up

Tony Mobile:
“How long -- and how much money -- do you think it would have taken a person to come up with a letter like the one you wrote, if s/he had to do it paying up a lawyer? How long did it take you to write it?”

KD: “Well, it didn't take long to write it; a couple of hours, perhaps. But I did spend a long time working on the underlying research and consulting with IP attorneys who are old friends of mine, running drafts by them, making changes, that sort of thing. It's been a few years since I last did intellectual property litigation, so I had to refresh myself on fundamentals, and I also had to search for other applicable patents and marks

If one were without legal education and needed to refer this to outside counsel, I would assume it would have cost a few thousand dollars to have the letter written. There are other obstacles as well; I know excellent IP lawyers I can phone for advice; that's a lot better than having to scan the yellow pages and hope you get a competent practitioner who has time and the inclination to help.”

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Reviewers of anything from cars to motorcycles to kitchen appliances should be asked to join. This could be a huge win for consumer rights.

 

[calugg]

Thanks for this. Was a real pleasure and education reading Kurt Denke’s letter. Legendary is the right word for it.

Loads of respect to Amir and ASR community for coming together so strongly.

I hope common sense and science prevails.

It’s 2024 and well nigh time to get out of the dark ages of audiop

Kurt Denke, the president of Blue Jeans, was a lawyer. He also faced a legal threat from Monster Cable and his public letter to them has become an urban legend. I don't know if he is still alive, but if so, perhaps he could provide some advice regarding this proposal.

Blue Jeans Cable Strikes Back - Response to Monster Cable

Not long ago we reported that Monster Cable had issued a cease and desist letter to Blue Jeans Cable about their Tartan cables. Little did the lawyer drones over at Monster know that Kurt Denke, the

www.audioholics.com

What a GLORIOUS letter. I particularly enjoyed Kurt pointing out that Monster has some shading tax issues.

"Further, if any of these patents or trademarks has been licensed to any entity, please provide me with copies of the licensing agreements. I assume that Monster Cable International, Ltd., in Bermuda, listed on these patents, is an IP holding company and that Monster Cable's principal US entity pays licensing fees to the Bermuda corporation in order to shift income out of the United States and thereby avoid paying United States federal income tax on those portions of its income; my request for these licensing agreements is specifically intended to include any licensing agreements, including those with closely related or sham entities, within or without the Monster Cable "family," and without regard to whether those licensing agreements are sham transactions for tax shelter purposes only or whether they are bona fide arm's-length transactions.

Delicious!!!

 

[pablolie]

About thirty years ago, I had a long telephone conversation with Ted Denney of Synergisic Research. He's a master BS artist. It was like listening to a cult leader. He talked about space particles, the planets and pixie dust. I swear he was making it up as he spoke. Back in the day there was no internet. Only publications and shows etc. So it was more difficult to find the truth about audiophile stuff.

if someone had mentioned space particles 30 year a ago... I would have walked away. Even then it was clear who did what with credibility. I threw my green CD edge pen into the garbage right away. It is the internet that helped amplify a lot of the garbage we hear these days.

 

[Salt]

if someone had mentioned space particles 30 year a ago... I would have walked away. Even then it was clear who did what credibiy. I threw my green CD edge pen into the garbage right away.

So sad for green pen: you should have been informed it only works if CD is demagnetized and fuzzilogitized before colourized.
TsTs .

 

[amirm]

If one were without legal education and needed to refer this to outside counsel, I would assume it would have cost a few thousand dollars to have the letter written.

That is precisely my experience with my attorneys. Anytime I have to consult with them on a matter, it easily costs a few thousand dollars.

 

[amirm]

5) I would imagine you have much of this covered, Amir, given your intelligence and work for a large corporation, and owning a smaller company of your own, but probably a good time to ensure ASR is incorporated in the best 5021(c)(3), LLC or other way to ensure you the greatest degree of protection.

If you look all the way down the bottom of any forum page, you see the reference "Audio Science Review LLC" We are a registered LLC in Washington state. It was the first thing I did to create this entity. It is a bit of a hassle with yearly reporting and fees but essential to have.

I should note that with amount of capital equipment I have invested in ASR, losing that would be a substantial hit to me even with LLC protection to avoid attachment to my personal assets. Hence the expensive insurance policies.

 

[amirm]

Someone at Google must be reading ASR as to suggest this video to me on youtube out of nowhere.

I am thinking we need to protect reviewers all over, not just in audio. And this organization may need to be larger than what I initially envisioned.