• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Proposal: Right to Fair Review (RFR) Association

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,736
Likes
241,856
Location
Seattle Area
As many of you I am sure have followed, both Erin and I were hit with legal threats from a company post our reviews. Given the unfairness of the situation, many of you came to our defenses and provided incredible level of support both financially and in many other ways such as legal and business advice. While I have always had this risk in mind and had prepared for it in some ways, it was still major source of pain for me and especially for Erin. While this crisis is not fully over, I think we need to look to the future to see how we could be better prepared for it.

I propose that a new lightweight organization be created that I call Right to Fair Review (RFA) Association (RFAA). The things we need to cover in there are:

1. Education. What are the legal issues involved in writing independent reviews of products? What is the law exactly? What are the best practices for writing/creating video reviews as to lower chances of litigation? What to do when threat of litigation or actual litigation is occurring? Advice regarding incorporation, LLC, etc. You get the idea.

2. Access to a lawyer for initial consultation. I am thinking half hour talking to an attorney with knowledge of the field (audio in our case) would do a world of good. While I have great attorneys, they don't know audio so it would take me a lot to explain things to them while paying $500/hour. And even then, they may not fully understand the situation. We have member attorneys here that could do a far more efficient job in a 30 minute conversation than many hours with a general attorney.

To keep such expenses low, such consultation could be limited to say, 1 per year for ordinary members, with option to go higher levels and get more of this.

3. Insurance. The insurance market has hardly any products to offer for this type of defamation claim. They have policies to insure large newspapers and such but not necessarily for small independent reviewers. I know, I had my broker look for months for such a policy until they found one a few years ago. I paid them nearly $5000/year for the policy, just to have them write me a cold letter a couple of months ago saying they no longer wanted to offer such a product. The search continued and again took a couple of months for my broker to find another policy with similar cost.

The organization could do such a search and create a proper market for such a policy. Even the policy I found needs better customization as their application form had tons and tons of irrelevant questions that I had to fill out in order to be qualified.

4. Referral to legal firms situated to handle the proper defense should the case go to trial, etc.

5. I am thinking reviewers could sign up by paying reasonable yearly fees. I am thinking $100 to $300 per year. Organization would then rely on donations for rest of its operational budget.

6. Staff attorneys could have day jobs and take these calls after hours. They could be compensated per hour or through advertising for their firm.

7. Guidelines for company conduct could be created as far as how they approach reviewers with objections, issues. Then, they could be allowed to become members and have a seal of "fair review supporters" which they could display as being good citizens. So while the number of reviewers is small, this class could be quite large. We have already seen a number of companies speaking out in support of value of fair reviews of audio products.

8. This is a much larger goal but campaigning politically for specific laws to protect fair reviews as opposed to having old laws regarding defamation, etc. be repurposed to go after reviews.

9. Guidelines for reviews. Just as there will be some for manufacturers, there needs to be things that reviewers do to be in good standing with the organization. For example, posting manufacturer responses in reviews. Available contact information.

10. Ability to create arbitration to settle issues early and without much expense.

All of this said, there are down sides to such things as some orgs get the life of their own and wind up servicing themselves than their members, etc.

11. A private forum where like minded reviewers and members can exchange experiences and knowledge about this topic.

But here are my thoughts. What say you?
 

mns3dhm

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2022
Messages
12
Likes
54
My first remark is I am not a lawyer. You and Erin are obviously not the only persons who finds themselves in this situation, so I would try to reach out to publishers that have a long history of reviewing products and see if they will help. Two sources come to mind immediately; Consumer Reports has reviewed literally thousands of products, and I am certain they have delt with unhappy and litigious manufacturers. The other idea would be to see what publishers of automobile reviews like Car and Driver or MotorTrend might have to offer in this regard; they are certainly not kind or subtle about cars they hold in low regard, and they have been continuously publishing reviews for decades. There have to be law firms that have some experience and specialization in this capacity. Perhaps someone connected to this site that actually is a lawyer could provide some help or guidance on that. Luckily (lucky you!) you aren't starting from scratch and don't have to actually invent the wheel here.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,536
Likes
25,383
Location
Alfred, NY
My first thought: you'd need a LOT of lawyers because there's not telling what state a hypothetical action could be filed. And laws are different state to state.

I'm still thoroughly convinced that this is something blown way out of proportion. Some idiot rants about suing. OK, go ahead, buddy. You'll do that right after your ABX test showing you can hear the difference between silver and copper?

It's a solution to a non-problem, IMO.
 

BrooklynNick

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2023
Messages
65
Likes
93
Location
Brooklyn, NY
It is implied by item 1, but it needs to define what is fair and what would be unfair.

Kickstarter or similar might be a good way to launch this and do the initial fundraising. You will need some fundraising rewards like t-shirts, mugs, or maybe music. Perhaps we could donate used audio equipment to be auctioned in a fundraiser.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

Active Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
171
Likes
360
You should speak with a local corporate lawyer who has experience setting up small not-for-profit corporations. The association will need by-laws, a board, its own bank accounts, etc. The by-laws will need to be drafted with special care because of the legal defense fund aspect.
 

terryforsythe

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 4, 2022
Messages
496
Likes
535
2. Access to a lawyer for initial consultation. I am thinking half hour talking to an attorney with knowledge of the field (audio in our case) would do a world of good.
Hi Amir,

I am a Patent Attorney. I would like to help. It probably also would be good to get an Attorney involved that has experience with defamation issues/litigation, if there is one in this forum.
 

SMen

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2022
Messages
159
Likes
65
I am not in the USA, but rights such as these ought to be in existence already surely? My observation would require input from the members legally qualified in your jurisdiction.
But threatening legal action is one thing. Right of reply is another thing.

Products submitted by members break the chain because the manufacturer did not submit the product, and poor results might be specific to that one submitted item, or other factors.

Bit of a minefield! I am sorry to read that you are having these issues.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

Active Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
171
Likes
360
My first thought: you'd need a LOT of lawyers because there's not telling what state a hypothetical action could be filed. And laws are different state to state.

I'm still thoroughly convinced that this is something blown way out of proportion. Some idiot rants about suing. OK, go ahead, buddy. You'll do that right after your ABX test showing you can hear the difference between silver and copper?

It's a solution to a non-problem, IMO.
I share your sentiments overall, but disagree with your first thought. My understanding is this association would not be doing the defending; it would only be funding the defense. It should not have a roster of lawyers ready to go to trial in any state or country. It's like any other corp where litigation is handled by outside counsel. In this case, the defendant is not the review association, but whichever individual or small business to which the review association is giving money. The key work of the association would be the financial mechanics of handling a bunch of money responsibly, and judging who can use that money in what way.
 

middlemarch

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 4, 2023
Messages
130
Likes
160
Location
Seattle Area
I think the idea is terrific. My concern is this sounds like pretty much a full time job for at least one person, and if pursuing lobbying efforts to try to get legislative support, more than one. Jealously, I want Amir to continue to focus on what we all love him for, reviews and running this site.

How do we get something like this setup without impinging on Amir's time anymore than absolutely necessary? We all as a community would benefit from something like this, is there any way to add this to the charter of an existing Freedom of the Press organization? Just shooting in the dark here...
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,536
Likes
25,383
Location
Alfred, NY
My understanding is this association would not be doing the defending
No, I wouldn't think that either, but even advice on how to handle things is going to be state-dependent. As a gross example, a SLAPP state versus a non-SLAPP state.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2024
Messages
64
Likes
169
This guy does automobile reviews and has opinions. He says anything on YouTube and he is still there.
Without looking I presume you are speaking of Scotty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EJ3

Timcognito

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,580
Likes
13,457
Location
NorCal
If I look at ASR, EAC, AH, Stereophile, Soundstage and few others are in a minority of those with measurements and methodology, and vast number are on the wrong side of reviewing with or without bad motives. A lot of time would be spent dealing with those guys that could be spent on doing a good job. As some have mentioned having a published standard for measurements procedures per device type and agreeing to use it might be better.
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,250
Likes
17,205
Location
Riverview FL

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,200
Likes
2,480
Not a good idea as methodology is not developed enough to call it flow less and still improving. Legal and every other support sure and perhaps better disclaimer.
 

Multicore

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 6, 2021
Messages
1,789
Likes
1,968
9. Guidelines for reviews. Just as there will be some for manufacturers, there needs to be things that reviewers do to be in good standing with the organization. For example, posting manufacturer responses in reviews. Available contact information.
Protocols for presenting review information as clearly one of 1) measurements that the reviewer believes to be repeatable (i.e. objective); versus 2) inferences from measurements (i.e. theoretical extrapolation from measurement in which the theory has some consensus, e.g. predicted in-room response, or such and such impairment is inaudible); versus 3) personal subjective (I like this, don't like that).

Protocols for handling disputes.

These don't need to be complicated documents. But if you do a really good job writing them down then some manufacturers will want to be seen to support them and the reviewers that uphold them. If that can be accomplished, that would be a diplomatic achievement to be proud of.
 

Pio

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Messages
127
Likes
286
I love independant testing like you do here @amirm and what Erin does for his site, etc.

Many years ago - maybe 2003 or so, a car magazine (Car and Driver?) dyno tested a Ford Cobra - they determined that the car was nowhere near at the horsepower Ford was claiming.

Because of this independant test, I remember reading that that Ford issued a recall on the Cobra's and fixed an intake part that was preventing the peak numbers on some of the cars. I thought it was awesome that Ford did that, but the buyers would have never known they weren't getting the performance they were paying for had it not been for that test.

EDIT: Ford Mustang SVT Cobra
 
Last edited:

kemmler3D

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
3,399
Likes
6,961
Location
San Francisco
As many of you I am sure have followed, both Erin and I were hit with legal threats from a company post our reviews. Given the unfairness of the situation, many of you came to our defenses and provided incredible level of support both financially and in many other ways such as legal and business advice. While I have always had this risk in mind and had prepared for it in some ways, it was still major source of pain for me and especially for Erin. While this crisis is not fully over, I think we need to look to the future to see how we could be better prepared for it.

I propose that a new lightweight organization be created that I call Right to Fair Review (RFA) Association (RFAA). The things we need to cover in there are:

1. Education. What are the legal issues involved in writing independent reviews of products? What is the law exactly? What are the best practices for writing/creating video reviews as to lower chances of litigation? What to do when threat of litigation or actual litigation is occurring? Advice regarding incorporation, LLC, etc. You get the idea.

2. Access to a lawyer for initial consultation. I am thinking half hour talking to an attorney with knowledge of the field (audio in our case) would do a world of good. While I have great attorneys, they don't know audio so it would take me a lot to explain things to them while paying $500/hour. And even then, they may not fully understand the situation. We have member attorneys here that could do a far more efficient job in a 30 minute conversation than many hours with a general attorney.

To keep such expenses low, such consultation could be limited to say, 1 per year for ordinary members, with option to go higher levels and get more of this.

3. Insurance. The insurance market has hardly any products to offer for this type of defamation claim. They have policies to insure large newspapers and such but not necessarily for small independent reviewers. I know, I had my broker look for months for such a policy until they found one a few years ago. I paid them nearly $5000/year for the policy, just to have them write me a cold letter a couple of months ago saying they no longer wanted to offer such a product. The search continued and again took a couple of months for my broker to find another policy with similar cost.

The organization could do such a search and create a proper market for such a policy. Even the policy I found needs better customization as their application form had tons and tons of irrelevant questions that I had to fill out in order to be qualified.

4. Referral to legal firms situated to handle the proper defense should the case go to trial, etc.

5. I am thinking reviewers could sign up by paying reasonable yearly fees. I am thinking $100 to $300 per year. Organization would then rely on donations for rest of its operational budget.

6. Staff attorneys could have day jobs and take these calls after hours. They could be compensated per hour or through advertising for their firm.

7. Guidelines for company conduct could be created as far as how they approach reviewers with objections, issues. Then, they could be allowed to become members and have a seal of "fair review supporters" which they could display as being good citizens. So while the number of reviewers is small, this class could be quite large. We have already seen a number of companies speaking out in support of value of fair reviews of audio products.

8. This is a much larger goal but campaigning politically for specific laws to protect fair reviews as opposed to having old laws regarding defamation, etc. be repurposed to go after reviews.

9. Guidelines for reviews. Just as there will be some for manufacturers, there needs to be things that reviewers do to be in good standing with the organization. For example, posting manufacturer responses in reviews. Available contact information.

10. Ability to create arbitration to settle issues early and without much expense.

All of this said, there are down sides to such things as some orgs get the life of their own and wind up servicing themselves than their members, etc.

11. A private forum where like minded reviewers and members can exchange experiences and knowledge about this topic.

But here are my thoughts. What say you?
Definitely like the idea.

I will say that per point 8, 33 states in the US have some variation of an Anti-SLAPP law which AFAIK typically would cover a fair review of a product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strat...ublic_participation#Jurisdictional_variations

So a big service to reviewers could simply be (as you point out in #1) making them aware of their options with regard to those laws, and the limits of defamation / libel laws.


To @SIY's point - I don't totally agree that this is a non-issue, but he's right that there are a lot of "litigation" bullies who are just bluffing. They do it because most people don't know their legal rights and get scared. If they know enough to reply with a legally factual "Well, good luck getting around SLAPP, doofus" that will stop a lot of it.
 
Top Bottom