New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[DJBonoBobo]

hi
can i use the ma1 without the neumann software ? for example with sonarworks ? where can i find the mic file ? (this is for when im travelling)

Here:

MA 1

ma1.neumann.com

i have the 310s + 1 750 , which made a big difference, however since ive started using the correction on the 750 i have noticed a little latency which is fine when mixing but feels a bit weird when playing an instrument, even just pluggin my guitar in the soundcard - without running any plugins.. so i was wondering if there is a way to momentarily switch off the neumann software

You can change to "backplate" in MA1 software instead of an alignment. If this doesn't help you could switch the hardware button from network to local.

 

[Markus @ Neumann]

Hello kindleman,

The Neumann MA 1 measurement microphone can be used as a standard measurement microphone also in combination with other software applications. It requires 48 V phantom power and has the parameters as frequency linearity, max SPL and noise level according to the data sheet.

However, since every MA 1 microphone is measured individually during production it can be calibrated to a class 1 measurement microphone. Therefore, we provide a MICROPHONE LINEARIZATION tool on our website.

MA 1

ma1.neumann.com

By entering in the individual calibration code printed on every microphone into the calculator the tool provides a compensation file which then can be imported into a measurement software as microphone calibration table.

In the MA 1 software you can select backplate mode alignment which disables the calibration data previously calculated and uploaded into the loudspeakers/subs by the software.
If a noticeable latency occurs that usually indicates that a strong mode is at or around the x-over frequency (80 Hz). If this is the case it may make sense to look for a better position of subwoofer or monitors.
Despite a amplitude correction the algorithm optimizes the coherence between sub and monitors to achieve a maximum tight bass response. If there is a strong mode the group-delay next to it increases which then can increase latency.

With best regards,

Markus

 

[CleanSound]

Hello kindleman,

The Neumann MA 1 measurement microphone can be used as a standard measurement microphone also in combination with other software applications. It requires 48 V phantom power and has the parameters as frequency linearity, max SPL and noise level according to the data sheet.

However, since every MA 1 microphone is measured individually during production it can be calibrated to a class 1 measurement microphone. Therefore, we provide a MICROPHONE LINEARIZATION tool on our website.

MA 1

ma1.neumann.com

By entering in the individual calibration code printed on every microphone into the calculator the tool provides a compensation file which then can be imported into a measurement software as microphone calibration table.
View attachment 345510
View attachment 345509

In the MA 1 software you can select backplate mode alignment which disables the calibration data previously calculated and uploaded into the loudspeakers/subs by the software.
If a noticeable latency occurs that usually indicates that a strong mode is at or around the x-over frequency (80 Hz). If this is the case it may make sense to look for a better position of subwoofer or monitors.
Despite a amplitude correction the algorithm optimizes the coherence between sub and monitors to achieve a maximum tight bass response. If there is a strong mode the group-delay next to it increases which then can increase latency.

With best regards,

Markus

Hi @Markus @ Neumann ,

Can you explain what exactly is a "class 1 measurement microphone"?

What exactly is "MICROPHONE LINEARIZATION"/"individual correction curve"? Is it just individual mic calibration?

And are there any specific ADC I need with this mic? Would the E1DA Cosmos ADC work?

Thanks.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi @Markus @ Neumann ,

Can you explain what exactly is a "class 1 measurement microphone"?

What exactly is "MICROPHONE LINEARIZATION"/"individual correction curve"? Is it just individual mic calibration?

And are there any specific ADC I need with this mic? Would the E1DA Cosmos ADC work?

Thanks.

Have you tried answering these questions yourself?

 

[CleanSound]

Have you tried answering these questions yourself?

Like with everything in life, the degree of try is a spectrum. Anyways, I have tried enough to post the question to be worthy in my view.

Now unless your regions' Google algorithm is different from mine, it's now clear what a class 1 is. Sure, there are inferences that class one is precise and accurate, but what makes it a "class 1," is it based on a certain performance factor? Is there a certifying body? Is it an industry standard?

Same comment for "microphone linearization" sure I can reasonably conclude it's some sort of calibration file/adjustment, but nothing on Google definitely, absolutely with authority confirms it.

Sure, why wouldn't the Cosmos ADC work? And ADC is an ADC. Just like gas for a car is gas, except some cars aren't designed for 87. Perhaps there is something obscure about compatibility.

 

[Markus @ Neumann]

Hi @Markus @ Neumann ,

Can you explain what exactly is a "class 1 measurement microphone"?

What exactly is "MICROPHONE LINEARIZATION"/"individual correction curve"? Is it just individual mic calibration?

And are there any specific ADC I need with this mic? Would the E1DA Cosmos ADC work?

Thanks.

Hello CleanSound,

There are standardized limits microphones have to be in to fulfil the requirements for a certain measurement microphone class. It is mentioned in IEC_61672-1. According to this the maximum allowed deviation needs to be within those limits: (sorry, I just have this in German)

The deviation of our MA 1 microphones is like this:

You can see that all microphones measured and calibrated up to this point in time when this screenshot was taken were way below the allowed class 1 frequency limits.

By entering the individual calibration code which is printed at your MA 1 microphone into the calculation tool on our website the software gives out a microphone specific correction table which you can enter into your measuring software as a microphone correction. By doing this the remaining nonlinearity of the microphone is reduced even more to be within the limits shown above.

You can actually take any audio interface which provides phantom power of 48 V and has ASIO drivers if used with a PC. We had rare issues with some audio interfaces. I don't have experience with the one you mentioned.

With best regards,

Markus

 

[CleanSound]

Hello CleanSound,

There are standardized limits microphones have to be in to fulfil the requirements for a certain measurement microphone class. It is mentioned in IES_61672-1. According to this the maximum allowed deviation needs to be within those limits: (sorry, I just have this in German)
View attachment 345896

The deviation of our MA 1 microphones is like this:
View attachment 345903

You can see that all microphones measured and calibrated up to this point in time when this screenshot was taken were way below the allowed class 1 frequency limits.

By entering the individual calibration code which is printed at your MA 1 microphone into the calculation tool on our website the software gives out a microphone specific correction table which you can enter into your measuring software as a microphone correction. By doing this the remaining nonlinearity of the microphone is reduced even more to be within the limits shown above.

You can actually take any audio interface which provides phantom power of 48 V and has ASIO drivers if used with a PC. We had rare issues with some audio interfaces. I don't have experience with the one you mentioned.

With best regards,

Markus

Thank you, very useful.

 

[Qu@rk]

Is there any code of conduct regarding requests for new/desired features at Neumann that I am not aware of?

Stereo subwoofer calibration:

I asked here a long time ago, no response. I asked Mr. Westphal a long time ago (more than a year) and he said it should be available soon.

I politely asked Pro support (I'm a dealer) several weeks ago, no response. I sent my polite request to [email protected], no response. I recently asked end user support, no response yet.

Do you just not ask this or do you get no response at all to such requests, even if it is ultimately very rude? Is this a stupid question?

My customers have asked me this repeatedly and I can never give an answer.

Please understand my annoyance.

 

[Markus @ Neumann]

Hello Qu@rk,

I’m very sorry that you didn’t get feedback earlier.

We are continually working on further developing our software. This is valid regarding new features as well as performance updates. With lack of infinite resources, we of course have to prioritize which feature or improvement comes first.

Regarding stereo subwoofer:
In our online manual we have formulated a work around how two subwoofers can be used in stereo.
We do not have this implemented as an automatic alignment yet. I also cannot tell you if and when we intend to offer this.
In general, we recommend using two or more subwoofers in mono mode.
Towards lower frequencies the ability to localize acoustical signals is getting worse. Additionally with different placements of subwoofers inside the room, huge level differences can occur due to different interaction with room modes. This may lead to the impression that a tone comes from the one or the other subwoofer.

By routing the subwoofers in parallel both subwoofers are working as a bass array which significantly reduces the lateral mode of the room. This leads to reduced nonlinearity and decreased resonances. The overall response is smoother and the bass is tighter.

With best regards,

Markus

 

[Qu@rk]

Thank you.

Calibration in two passes is very time-consuming and it is not always possible to place both subwoofers at the same distance from the listening position.

Would you agree that a properly performed stereo subwoofer calibration has considerable sonic advantages in terms of spatiality? That is the reason why I would like to recommend this to my customers, if feasible.

An automatic calibration would make the process and testing of this configuration much easier. You could decide more quickly whether a mono or stereo subwoofer setup would be the better decision.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thank you, very useful.

Yes take any cheap audio interface. Only requirement is that it has 48V phantom power - see MA1 Neumann webpage. (Cosmos does not have 48V phantom power to my knowledge and is an overkill).

See the ones from either Focusrite 2i2 or Motu M2 they measure well, have stable drivers, easy to use and about 100 bucks or so.

 

[CleanSound]

Hey @Markus @ Neumann, thank you for interacting with the community, current and future customers. I always appreciate and love it when manufacturers interact directly with their customers.

While I have you here, I don't believe I've seen any specs on MTBF on the Neumann monitors. I recently purchased a pair of KH 120, I use it for near field listening on my desk while working. It is typically on 6 to 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. These monitors are not cheap, and I have lingering concerns about how long they will last, especially everything is in one package as they are active monitors.. Can you comment on MTBF with your monitors?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CleanSound]

Yes take any cheap audio interface. Only requirement is that it has 48V phantom power - see MA1 Neumann webpage. (Cosmos does not have 48V phantom power to my knowledge and is an overkill).

See the ones from either Focusrite 2i2 or Motu M2 they measure well, have stable drivers, easy to use and about 100 bucks or so.

You can always buy a phantom power supply to plug in. I ask specifically about the Cosmos, because I plan to get it for something else, so two birds one stone. I ask about the Cosmos even though an ADC is an ADC, but sure enough Markus states: "We had rare issues with some audio interfaces." I just wanted to do more due diligence and see if there are any rare and obscure issues with the Cosmos.

Anyways, I order the Cosmos.

 

[Markus @ Neumann]

Thank you.

Calibration in two passes is very time-consuming and it is not always possible to place both subwoofers at the same distance from the listening position.

Would you agree that a properly performed stereo subwoofer calibration has considerable sonic advantages in terms of spatiality? That is the reason why I would like to recommend this to my customers, if feasible.

An automatic calibration would make the process and testing of this configuration much easier. You could decide more quickly whether a mono or stereo subwoofer setup would be the better decision.

Hello Qu@rk,

If you have free field conditions stereo subwoofer constellation has advantages over mono sub. In real rooms room modes occure which usually destroy localisation completely due to significant level difference from one to the other sub. The "stereo image" you hear is usually caused by those effects rather than by a real stereo source. Despite this also the modal behavior is improved due to the bass array if both subs are correctly placed.
In most cases the advantages of having a mono sub constellation outweight a stereo sub by far.
As mentioned I cannot tell you when we can offer that feature. Sorry.

With best regards,

Markus

 

[Markus @ Neumann]

Hey @Markus @ Neumann, thank you for interacting with the community, current and future customers. I always appreciate and love it when manufacturers interact directly with their customers.

While I have you here, I don't believe I've seen any specs on MTBF on the Neumann monitors. I recently purchased a pair of KH 120, I use it for near field listening on my desk while working. It is typically on 6 to 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. These monitors are not cheap, and I have lingering concerns about how long they will last, especially everything is in one package as they are active monitors.. Can you comment on MTBF with your monitors?

Thanks in advance.

Hello CleanSound,

Maybe this helps a bit:

Neumann KH80DSP Teardown

Also interesting that they went with Cirrus Logic CS42526 chip to do both 2 channel ADC and 6 channel DAC functions with it. As they mention in the description of the speaker, they used both ADC channels to digitize the XLRs + and - signals separately, and sum them digitally. ADC THD+N is -100...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With best regards,

Markus

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You can always buy a phantom power supply to plug in. I ask specifically about the Cosmos, because I plan to get it for something else, so two birds one stone. I ask about the Cosmos even though an ADC is an ADC, but sure enough Markus states: "We had rare issues with some audio interfaces." I just wanted to do more due diligence and see if there are any rare and obscure issues with the Cosmos.

Anyways, I order the Cosmos.

Understand. Make sure Cosmos has ASIO drivers. MA1 doesn’t „like“ all interfaces. Plus Cosmos has ADC „only“ and I am not sure if MA1 expects DAC and ADC in one USB connection plus I don’t remember the MA1 let me choose between input vs output source (but I can check again later). Just check. At least look for the return policy. Just in case.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hello CleanSound,

Maybe this helps a bit:

Neumann KH80DSP Teardown

Also interesting that they went with Cirrus Logic CS42526 chip to do both 2 channel ADC and 6 channel DAC functions with it. As they mention in the description of the speaker, they used both ADC channels to digitize the XLRs + and - signals separately, and sum them digitally. ADC THD+N is -100...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With best regards,

Markus

Wow. This is excellent. You are the first Audio equipment manufacturer, which I know, which even gives out this kind of information.

(Btw. Happy with my KH80/750/MA1 since ca two years and with many years to come. )

 

[CleanSound]

Understand. Make sure Cosmos has ASIO drivers. MA1 doesn’t „like“ all interfaces. Plus Cosmos has ADC „only“ and I am not sure if MA1 expects DAC and ADC in one USB connection plus I don’t remember the MA1 let me choose between input vs output source (but I can check again later). Just check. At least look for the return policy. Just in case.

The cosmos is compatible with asio4all (with some limitation). According to E1DA:
" Windows 10 doesn't need the driver but Windows 7 does and the driver installation may require manual installation. So, if you are not ready for that the good idea just update W7 for W10." That sounds like it's plug and play on Windows 10 and above, not sure if that is asio or not. But looks like you can use the asio4all driver and possibly use that Windows 7 driver on newer version on Windows.

 

[CleanSound]

Wow. This is excellent. You are the first Audio equipment manufacturer, which I know, which even gives out this kind of information.

(Btw. Happy with my KH80/750/MA1 since ca two years and with many years to come. )

"The audio performance which can be achieved, the reliability even under the hardest studio conditions, consistency between different models and under different environmental conditions and the flexibility to integrate them in different environments."

"During the project phase before every development stage the samples have to pass a 1000 hours full power test with different types of test signals."

"All electrolytic capacitors used by Neumann are de-rated for a >10 year lifetime under a harsh usage model that far exceeds the expected normal use for the product. This is how we ensure the reliability and quality of our products."

While does not directly answer the question on the MTBF on the product as a whole, but at least it give some level of confidence that these studio monitor were designed and built for use in harsh environments and use cases. I just hope these monitors can last at least 10 years, that would be $200/year or $16.66/month, if so, that would be a good value.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The cosmos is compatible with asio4all (with some limitation). According to E1DA:
" Windows 10 doesn't need the driver but Windows 7 does and the driver installation may require manual installation. So, if you are not ready for that the good idea just update W7 for W10." That sounds like it's plug and play on Windows 10 and above, not sure if that is asio or not. But looks like you can use the asio4all driver and possibly use that Windows 7 driver on newer version on Windows.

As hinted above, again, MA1 does not allow for separate DAC / ADC. Just for one audiointerface (see their HW requirements on their webpage). Apparently, you know best. Just dont come back whining here, in case Cosmos ADC does not work. I am out. Good luck.