New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[fakemaxwell]

I haven't bought the multichannel extension yet (it's crazy that it's an additional cost, to be honest). I'm flipping back and forth between 2.2 stereo (MA1 Aligned) and 5.1 (unaligned) currently.

I have 3x KH120II, 2x KH750, 2x KH80. LR go into left sub, C and Lfe go into right sub. When in stereo, I send a duplicate of LR to right sub digitally through RME Totalmix, so no physical cable repatching to switch between setups.

How would this work in 5.1 with the MA 1? Would I have to unplug all the cables and go directly into the KH120s? Will the LRC be able to use the bass management of the 750s or are the subs only for Lfe? I searched for information but found none specific enough. Anybody have any experience?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I haven't bought the multichannel extension yet (it's crazy that it's an additional cost, to be honest).

Not crazy at all. Dirac Live multichannel + DLBC + UMIK costs way more (more than twice, i think). Sonarworks costs roughly the same, also with additional fee for multichannel. GLM costs a bit less, but the Genelec speakers are a lot more expensive. So it is prized competitively.

 

[fakemaxwell]

Not crazy at all. Dirac Live multichannel + DLBC + UMIK costs way more (more than twice, i think). Sonarworks costs roughly the same, also with additional fee for multichannel. GLM costs a bit less, but the Genelec speakers are a lot more expensive. So it is prized competitively.

Oh well, here nor there. If it works with my setup I'll buy it, if it requires extensive finagling to switch I won't.

 

[Zaireeka]

Hey there, I'd like to switch from analog to digital inputs on my KH120 without having to redo all the measurement process since the speakers position isn't going to change.

Any idea on how I could simply copy an Alignment (Notches) from one setup (Desktop 2.0 in my case) to an other?
Or maybe which file can I edit to switch from Analog to Automatic/SPDIF inputs?

Thanks!

 

[Zaireeka]

Self-reply...

Solved! Thanks to Schwinn and his great khtool utility, no need to measure my speakers again.

Setting input type on KH120 II · Issue #5 · schwinn/khtool

Hi I managed to query the input type used on my KH120, but I can't find the command to change it from Analog to Digital. Any help?

github.com

 

[SmallAvatar]

Hi, everyone! I have Neumann KH-150. In addition, my room is party ready for the better sound. From the beginning, they sounded great, except the bass. It was too much. I bought MA1 for correction. And my friend has Dayton Audio IMM-6 correction mic. So, I have a few questions

1. It’s impossible to set up same length for the triangle for the sweet spot. But in Neumann app I should use the same length, because I have to put in a=b=c - 1 measurement only. So In fact, I listen closer than the distance between speakers. However, during measurement I set up MA1 right in the corner of the equilateral triangle. I guess, this is the right way in my case. What do you think?
2. I attached the correction of the MA1. After the correction, the result was not very noticeable. Just a little. Why does MA1 always make +2dB for the bass line? The orange one. I saw the same on other user’s graphs?
3. After MA-1 correction we used Dayton Audio IMM-6 + REW. It showed a big bass boost at around 52Hz and 120Hz. So, we used EQ for the correction and eventually the frequency response graph become flat. The extra bass went away. Why MA1 didn’t correct so much amount of bass? I attached image for the EQ with current (best for myself) settings after MA1 correction.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi, everyone! I have Neumann KH-150. In addition, my room is party ready for the better sound. From the beginning, they sounded great, except the bass. It was too much. I bought MA1 for correction. And my friend has Dayton Audio IMM-6 correction mic. So, I have a few questions

1. It’s impossible to set up same length for the triangle for the sweet spot. But in Neumann app I should use the same length, because I have to put in a=b=c - 1 measurement only. So In fact, I listen closer than the distance between speakers. However, during measurement I set up MA1 right in the corner of the equilateral triangle. I guess, this is the right way in my case. What do you think?
2. I attached the correction of the MA1. After the correction, the result was not very noticeable. Just a little. Why does MA1 always make +2dB for the bass line? The orange one. I saw the same on other user’s graphs?
3. After MA-1 correction we used Dayton Audio IMM-6 + REW. It showed a big bass boost at around 52Hz and 120Hz. So, we used EQ for the correction and eventually the frequency response graph become flat. The extra bass went away. Why MA1 didn’t correct so much amount of bass? I attached image for the EQ with current (best for myself) settings after MA1 correction.

The MA1 should be at the listening position (first measurement position). Just tell the software the distance between LP and speakers. It can't correct the bass at LP if the measurement takes place somewhere else.

 

[SmallAvatar]

The MA1 should be at the listening position (first measurement position). Just tell the software the distance between LP and speakers. It can't correct the bass at LP if the measurement takes place somewhere else.

In this case the result also not the same as in REW.

 

[isabido]

In this case the result also not the same as in REW.

I have a question, because being an automatic correction with MA-1, which must be an FIR filter, do you show those PEQ active? That's something you've marked manually, right?

 

[SmallAvatar]

I have a question, because being an automatic correction with MA-1, which must be an FIR filter, do you show those PEQ active? That's something you've marked manually, right?

Yes, I made a small correction manually, because it was +2dB bass level on the target curve, but I already have too much bass even after the correction (and this shows the REW + Dayton Audio IMM-6 mic). I will make one more measure in a few days to check the original state. Anyway, it does not eliminate the bass on 52Hz and 120Hz, as REW shows. I can hear that. And I can't understand why there as a 2dB boost in the Bass area on the target curve?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Yes, I made a small correction manually, because it was +2dB bass level on the target curve, but I already have too much bass even after the correction (and this shows the REW + Dayton Audio IMM-6 mic). I will make one more measure in a few days to check the original state. Anyway, it does not eliminate the bass on 52Hz and 120Hz, as REW shows. I can hear that. And I can't understand why there as a 2dB boost in the Bass area on the target curve?

I don't understand what you did and what the measurements show. The REW graph looks like the "before" graph in MA1. Is the correction from MA1 not applied? It shows huge corrections that should be very noticeable.

Edit: Regarding the 2 dB boost in bass: I can´t explain this very well, but If you put a neutral speaker in a room, the measurements on the listening position would always show a downward slope (more bass than treble). AFAIK, the bigger the distance, the more. This is what the human brain expects. So it is always recommended not using a completely flat target curve as a starting point. Neumann is actually pretty conservative. Dirac usually uses a much bigger bass boost.
If it is too much you can adjust to taste, of course. The software tries setting a good target depending on the data it knows about the room, but it is possible you just don´t like it. But if you did not notice much of a difference, i suspect something else went wrong and the 2dB are not the real problem here.

 

[SmallAvatar]

I will remeasure on weekends and upload the raw graph from MA1. And we can compare more clearly

 

[vaskin2]

I don't understand what you did and what the measurements show. The REW graph looks like the "before" graph in MA1. Is the correction from MA1 not applied? It shows huge corrections that should be very noticeable.

I’ll try to briefly explain what’s on the graphs that SmallAvatar posted in post #1,347:
1. first we tuning Neuman's using microphone MA1 through the Neuman application, applied correction(photo ma1.jpg), the sound did not change much.
2. then we got measurements in REW through the IMM-6C microphone, got the REW.jpg graph, realized that there was still a lot of bass and got the coefficients for the equalizer
3. we configured the equalizer with REW coefficients (and manual correction) and got a flat(+-) graph in REW (no photo)

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I’ll try to briefly explain what’s on the graphs that SmallAvatar posted in post #1,347:
1. first we tuning Neuman's using microphone MA1 through the Neuman application, applied correction(photo ma1.jpg), the sound did not change much.
2. then we got measurements in REW through the IMM-6C microphone, got the REW.jpg graph, realized that there was still a lot of bass and got the coefficients for the equalizer
3. we configured the equalizer with REW coefficients (and manual correction) and got a flat(+-) graph in REW (no photo)

Ok, thanks for explaining. To me it looks like something went wrong.
I suggest making a before/after measurement with REW at the same mic position as the first measurement mic position with MA1.

 

[pferdeworscht]

Hi, everyone! I have Neumann KH-150. In addition, my room is party ready for the better sound. From the beginning, they sounded great, except the bass. It was too much. I bought MA1 for correction. And my friend has Dayton Audio IMM-6 correction mic. So, I have a few questions

1. It’s impossible to set up same length for the triangle for the sweet spot. But in Neumann app I should use the same length, because I have to put in a=b=c - 1 measurement only. So In fact, I listen closer than the distance between speakers. However, during measurement I set up MA1 right in the corner of the equilateral triangle. I guess, this is the right way in my case. What do you think?
2. I attached the correction of the MA1. After the correction, the result was not very noticeable. Just a little. Why does MA1 always make +2dB for the bass line? The orange one. I saw the same on other user’s graphs?
3. After MA-1 correction we used Dayton Audio IMM-6 + REW. It showed a big bass boost at around 52Hz and 120Hz. So, we used EQ for the correction and eventually the frequency response graph become flat. The extra bass went away. Why MA1 didn’t correct so much amount of bass? I attached image for the EQ with current (best for myself) settings after MA1 correction.

I completely agree with DJBonoBobo, that something might have gone wrong. According to my (first) experience with the MA1-correction, I assume that the displayed correction should lead to a distinctive and noticeable difference in sound.

Here is an example of my correction and the change (with vs without correction) was easily identifiable. After a first, quick installation, the Neumann KH120II sounded impressive, but I quickly realized that the bass was too much and the mids were too shy (or rather masked by the bass, as resulted from the correction).
After the correction with the MA1 it was way better, which was obvious by enabling/disabling the correction (and it fixed my first impression of too much bass, too shy mids).

And I have to say, the measurements were done more quickly and easier as I assumed (never done something in this direction before and I was a bit skeptical because of the mentioned bugs and flaws, but everything went smooth for me).

@DJBonoBobo And a big thanks to you for this thread and your other descriptions and work on the MA1-correction. Amirm's review of the Neumann KH120II led me to put the KH120II on my "Wishlist". Your work led me to add the MA1 and when I saw a discounted bundle, I stretched my budget... I don't regret it^^

 

[DJBonoBobo]

New MA1 version 2.3 has been released.

Edit: I don't see the "support of non-network enabled monitors"-preview feature anywhere in the software. Typivally one can activate preview features, but this is not among them. Not sure it is actually in this version. Maybe they decided not putting in in at the last minute?

 

[SmallAvatar]

Hello, friends.

Thank you for the answers. I have made a new measurement. I used MA1 with REW and then with MA1 software. I also used another Mic Input on my Arturia Audiofuse audio interface (because it could be extra noise generate in the Input 1, I can’t check, but some people with this device told they have extra noise).

Anyway, this time I also used the advice of DJBonoBobo with the distance a=b=c in the software. So, the final results are good. The extra bass this time left away. I still a little bit left in my opinion, but I am okay with that. In general, the biggest problem was in wobbling bass, which made a sound a little dirty. Now it is clearer.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

New MA1 version 2.3 has been released.

View attachment 370093

Edit: I don't see the "support of non-network enabled monitors"-preview feature anywhere in the software. Typivally one can activate preview features, but this is not among them. Not sure it is actually in this version. Maybe they decided not putting in in at the last minute?

As a follow up: I think i found how to include analog speakers - i tried it with a 5.1 layout:

As i don´t have i center, i cannot continue though. Quad is not working this way. Maybe i´ll borrow another KH80 from my friend and try if it´s working. I think it should probably be okay to ditch the center afterwards as the corrections are stored in the speakers.

 

[Caprichoso]

Audio Interface Setup "Select your audio interface ..." no interface found.

Ma 1 Software 2.3.0 on Mac Studio 14.5.

I had the MA 1 software working but was having some problems with the microphone. To do some diagnosis I installed Sonarworks and verified that things were working with their microphone and a shure x2u XLR to USB interface. Got that working and went back to the MA 1 software. Disaster. Now no audio interfaces shows up to be selected in "Audio interface setup". I have an Oppo HA-1 DAC connected to KH 120 speakers. The Oppo showed up prior to my Sonarworks install.

Things I have done:

1. Uninstalled Sonarworks with instructions for removing audio drivers from their website
2. Uninstalled the MA 1 software with App Cleaner
3. Reinstalled the 2.3 MA 1 software
4. Verified in Sound preferences that the HA-1 correctly drives the speakers
5. Booted into Safe Mode, along with reboots after steps above
6. Verified with music apps that the HA 1 is there and working
7. Tried various settings in Audio Devices setup but still not found

I've run out of things to try ...

 

[pferdeworscht]

Audio Interface Setup "Select your audio interface ..." no interface found.

Ma 1 Software 2.3.0 on Mac Studio 14.5.

I had the MA 1 software working but was having some problems with the microphone. To do some diagnosis I installed Sonarworks and verified that things were working with their microphone and a shure x2u XLR to USB interface. Got that working and went back to the MA 1 software. Disaster. Now no audio interfaces shows up to be selected in "Audio interface setup". I have an Oppo HA-1 DAC connected to KH 120 speakers. The Oppo showed up prior to my Sonarworks install.

Things I have done:

1. Uninstalled Sonarworks with instructions for removing audio drivers from their website
2. Uninstalled the MA 1 software with App Cleaner
3. Reinstalled the 2.3 MA 1 software
4. Verified in Sound preferences that the HA-1 correctly drives the speakers
5. Booted into Safe Mode, along with reboots after steps above
6. Verified with music apps that the HA 1 is there and working
7. Tried various settings in Audio Devices setup but still not found

I've run out of things to try ...

If I understand you correctly, the problem might be that the MA1 software needs the mic and the speakers connected to the same audio interface. So far as I know (if its still this way), you cannot use a separate DAC for speakers and separate interface for mic, you need an interface which manages both.

For example, I used a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 for calibration and afterwards switched speaker connection to my SMSL DO100 DAC.