KEF R series (2018) vs REFERENCE(2014?!)

[NADKEF listener]

I’ve just found this thread, so I know it’s been a while since the last reply, but there’s a large audio store nearby where I live that hosts three completely acoustically treated rooms, with the largest one hosting the high-end speakers. They had the non-meta R11’s right next to the Reference 5’s.

I auditioned them a few months ago, side-by-side, and upon listening to them in a complete A/B test on the same Denon amplifier, it was almost laughable how little difference it made. It was so small, in fact, that my wife and I looked at each later a few times whenever he switched, simply shocked at how little difference there was sonically. There WAS a difference, however, but just so unimportant that I would barely be able to tell them apart. The biggest difference was the 4x more expensive price, which instantly made us decide to go for the R11’s without any doubt (the Reference finish was black-glossy with the dirt-ugly brass drivers… ugh).

The dealer himself admitted it was criminal how similar both were, and he was slightly concerned that KEF was undercutting their top speakers so many times since their release. It’s literally just a question of whether you can’t stand having Chinese-produced elements in the speakers or not.

Curious to test them sometime in the near-future to compare them against the meta versions instead. I expect almost no real difference, but I could be wrong.

I had the same experience. Although the dealer had some very specific music and the volume quite loud to enable to hear the difference. But I thought when is that going to happen at home? With daily listening, R11 is already very, very good. As long as the amplifier can deliver the juice. I have the NAD M23. Perfect combination.

 

[AudioKC]

I’ve just found this thread, so I know it’s been a while since the last reply, but there’s a large audio store nearby where I live that hosts three completely acoustically treated rooms, with the largest one hosting the high-end speakers. They had the non-meta R11’s right next to the Reference 5’s.

I auditioned them a few months ago, side-by-side, and upon listening to them in a complete A/B test on the same Denon amplifier, it was almost laughable how little difference it made. It was so small, in fact, that my wife and I looked at each later a few times whenever he switched, simply shocked at how little difference there was sonically. There WAS a difference, however, but just so unimportant that I would barely be able to tell them apart. The biggest difference was the 4x more expensive price, which instantly made us decide to go for the R11’s without any doubt (the Reference finish was black-glossy with the dirt-ugly brass drivers… ugh).

The dealer himself admitted it was criminal how similar both were, and he was slightly concerned that KEF was undercutting their top speakers so many times since their release. It’s literally just a question of whether you can’t stand having Chinese-produced elements in the speakers or not.

Curious to test them sometime in the near-future to compare them against the meta versions instead. I expect almost no real difference, but I could be wrong.

Thank you for your comment.

Just bought R11 from Kef website, it’s on sale now for 1,499$

Could not wait to listen

 

[SlaughterX]

How do you like your R11s? I also took advantage of the clearance sale from KEF and got a pair for half off... I love em, but it sucks I didn't find out about the sale until most of other speakers were already sold out. I would have loved to catch the center and a pair of R3s to complete my set, but my Q series will have to do until I catch the metas on clearance, whenever that may be. I did catch the R8s Atmos add ons.

 

[Descartes]

How do you like your R11s? I also took advantage of the clearance sale from KEF and got a pair for half off... I love em, but it sucks I didn't find out about the sale until most of other speakers were already sold out. I would have loved to catch the center and a pair of R3s to complete my set, but my Q series will have to do until I catch the metas on clearance, whenever that may be. I did catch the R8s Atmos add ons.

Five years from now is when they will probably release version 3.0!

 

[rrahmanucla]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I have owned Ref 5's (non-meta) and R3's for years. Reference series undoubtedly measure slightly better. Many people conflate 12th generation UniQ as better than 8th gen or whatever is in the Reference. The generation is only in reference to which was developed first/later, not which has better performance. My understanding is many, but not all improvements were made to take try to take the gains from higher end driver parts in a more affordable form factor for successive speakers. So from a technical standpoint and measurement standpoint the Reference series are still better, but probably not audibly or signficantly so.

IMO the main benefits are aesthetic and build quality. R series models are smaller and just look/feel cheaper, SPL capability is a bit lower too, which is critical for home theater. Also worth noting, R series drivers are cheap and simple to replace, reference series repair is a much larger ordeal. This is my main complaint w/ the Reference series. In that regard, I think people would be happy with Reference series purchase or an R series purchase. Reference series speakers seem to have great aesthetics and near totl performance, R series has the better value for money with reasonable aesthetics. I would also add that the KEF R series isn't the end all of value. True value and performance chasers should be pursuing Neumann or Genelec or similar.

 

[Crosstalk]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I have owned Ref 5's (non-meta) and R3's for years. Reference series undoubtedly measure slightly better. Many people conflate 12th generation UniQ as better than 8th gen or whatever is in the Reference. The generation is only in reference to which was developed first/later, not which has better performance. My understanding is many, but not all improvements were made to take try to take the gains from higher end driver parts in a more affordable form factor for successive speakers. So from a technical standpoint and measurement standpoint the Reference series are still better, but probably not audibly or signficantly so.

IMO the main benefits are aesthetic and build quality. R series models are smaller and just look/feel cheaper, SPL capability is a bit lower too, which is critical for home theater. Also worth noting, R series drivers are cheap and simple to replace, reference series repair is a much larger ordeal. This is my main complaint w/ the Reference series. In that regard, I think people would be happy with Reference series purchase or an R series purchase. Reference series speakers seem to have great aesthetics and near totl performance, R series has the better value for money with reasonable aesthetics. I would also add that the KEF R series isn't the end all of value. True value and performance chasers should be pursuing Neumann or Genelec or similar.

Nuemann doesnt make any coaxials. Also, we cannot have amplifiers in them as good as Topping LA90 Discrete or Benchmark. Ultimate performance to me is my R11 with some LA90 Discrete mono blocks. R11 (the old one) can be eqed to have higher level of low end without distorting. Once frequency response is corrected for your room, that's it. You cannot have more transparency than them. To me, there is nothing to beat a R11 with Eq when used in combination with some devices like Topping LA90's and mini dsp flex. Under 6000 dollars one can have the most transparent system on the planet.

 

[rrahmanucla]

Nuemann doesnt make any coaxials. Also, we cannot have amplifiers in them as good as Topping LA90 Discrete or Benchmark. Ultimate performance to me is my R11 with some LA90 Discrete mono blocks. R11 (the old one) can be eqed to have higher level of low end without distorting. Once frequency response is corrected for your room, that's it. You cannot have more transparency than them. To me, there is nothing to beat a R11 with Eq when used in combination with some devices like Topping LA90's and mini dsp flex. Under 6000 dollars one can have the most transparent system on the planet.

Well thats good, sounds like your pretty happy with your set up.

To answer your 3 initial questions, from my interpretations of the measurements and personal experience living with all 3 of the speakers in question…

Is the 2018 R series more advanced than reference series? No, I don’t believe so. The advancements in the uniQ from 2014-2018 were not entirely related to performance, but cost effectiveness.

Is the R the best of square box designs? I’d probably still say no. Dutch 8c, neumann’s, genelecs, reference series, Revel performa I think still have the absolute edge.

Is there a reason to consider 2014 reference series over the 2018 R? Yes, slightly better performance, but mostly aesthetics, and build quality.

 

[jonfitch]

To me there's nothing that quite beats the looks of the Rosewood finish of the Reference 1s...

 

[Vacceo]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I have owned Ref 5's (non-meta) and R3's for years. Reference series undoubtedly measure slightly better. Many people conflate 12th generation UniQ as better than 8th gen or whatever is in the Reference. The generation is only in reference to which was developed first/later, not which has better performance. My understanding is many, but not all improvements were made to take try to take the gains from higher end driver parts in a more affordable form factor for successive speakers. So from a technical standpoint and measurement standpoint the Reference series are still better, but probably not audibly or signficantly so.

IMO the main benefits are aesthetic and build quality. R series models are smaller and just look/feel cheaper, SPL capability is a bit lower too, which is critical for home theater. Also worth noting, R series drivers are cheap and simple to replace, reference series repair is a much larger ordeal. This is my main complaint w/ the Reference series. In that regard, I think people would be happy with Reference series purchase or an R series purchase. Reference series speakers seem to have great aesthetics and near totl performance, R series has the better value for money with reasonable aesthetics. I would also add that the KEF R series isn't the end all of value. True value and performance chasers should be pursuing Neumann or Genelec or similar.

I'm not going to contradict your words at all, but just mention another fellow forum member, whom you may agree or disagree with.

Fomo (spocko on this house) has both a Genelec and a Persistent surround system. Once EQ'd, he argues that the differences are incredibly small. On the other hand and more specifically with KEF, Erin argues something similar with the R and Reference: once EQ'd the differences are quite small.

I guess that for large rooms that require a quite long distance to the speakers or when pushing very high SPL in general, difference can be evident. For low frequencies, probably the difference is clear but that can be fixed with a crossover and a subwoofer.