KEF R series (2018) vs REFERENCE(2014?!)

[Crosstalk]

Reference series came up in 2014 if m not wrong. Then in 2018 came up the current R series. Looking at the measurements, it looks like both are flat enough. I have not seen dircetivity measurements of Reference Series.

But from a technological standpoint isn’t R series more advanced as it would have incorporated whatever kef found between 2014 and 2018? Reference line never got an update if I am not wrong. Also no shadow flare on reference if m not wrong. So, can’t we safely say R11 is the best speaker out of KEFs square box design speakers ? I couldn’t find any flaw whatsoever on the R11. Is there any reason now still to conosder a reference series over the R in 2022?

 

[EdW]

It is possible that KEF is renewing some of its range of speakers and we shall see the new models shortly according to the rumour mill. KEF speakers have been engineered to measure very well and not surprisingly people have found that they are very enjoyable speakers for most program material.
The KEF UNI-Q mid/hi speaker has gone through several generations of continuous improvement and incorporating the most recent ideas into the Reference and Blade loudspeakers would improve the performance.

Looking at spinorama data:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

we can see that the relatively inexpensive KEF R3 performs very well but not as well as the much more expensive Reference 5 which is a near state of the art speaker. Lots of other reviews for these 2 speakers from other sources. Sadly no independent data on the R11 which I agree would complete the picture and match many peoples’ budgets but there is some KEF spinorama data referenced here:

KEF - Spinorama data

Objective loudspeaker measurement data - how to find it, how to interpret it, how to choose speakers based on the data.

speakerdata2034.blogspot.com

it does look as if the R series has a slight bass weakness? OK on the smaller R3 but perhaps a little disappointing on the large R11.

 

[abdo123]

My ancedotal analysis of what have been measured already is that the R series has better high-frequency linearity. but the difference is in the realm audiophile nervosa.

 

[Crosstalk]

It is possible that KEF is renewing some of its range of speakers and we shall see the new models shortly according to the rumour mill. KEF speakers have been engineered to measure very well and not surprisingly people have found that they are very enjoyable speakers for most program material.
The KEF UNI-Q mid/hi speaker has gone through several generations of continuous improvement and incorporating the most recent ideas into the Reference and Blade loudspeakers would improve the performance.

Looking at spinorama data:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

we can see that the relatively inexpensive KEF R3 performs very well but not as well as the much more expensive Reference 5 which is a near state of the art speaker. Lots of other reviews for these 2 speakers from other sources. Sadly no independent data on the R11 which I agree would complete the picture and match many peoples’ budgets but there is some KEF spinorama data referenced here:

KEF - Spinorama data

Objective loudspeaker measurement data - how to find it, how to interpret it, how to choose speakers based on the data.

speakerdata2034.blogspot.com

it does look as if the R series has a slight bass weakness? OK on the smaller R3 but perhaps a little disappointing on the large R11.

If we measure near field it will always be like that.
It’s the same for most speakers in measurements but in real rooms many folks managed to get it between 25-30hz at f3. The broken English guy here has it 30hz in his room for r7 even.

 

[Crosstalk]

Is there anything reference 1 does which a r11 cannot ? Ignore the advantage of r11 on bass extension..

 

[EdW]

If we measure near field it will always be like that.
It’s the same for most speakers in measurements but in real rooms many folks managed to get it between 25-30hz at f3. The broken English guy here has it 30hz in his room for r7 even

Is there anything reference 1 does which a r11 cannot ? Ignore the advantage of r11 on bass extension.

The Reference series are made in the UK rather than in China for the ‘R’ series. Finish of the Reference is better too but none of this necessarily affects sound quality.

best thing is to get to hear the speakers and judge them for yourself!
Recently there was a -20% off campaign for the ‘R’ and if you can still get that then the ‘R’ series could be even more attractive.

 

[Crosstalk]

The Reference series are made in the UK rather than in China for the ‘R’ series. Finish of the Reference is better too but none of this necessarily affects sound quality.

best thing is to get to hear the speakers and judge them for yourself!
Recently there was a -20% off campaign for the ‘R’ and if you can still get that then the ‘R’ series could be even more attractive.

I have heard the R many times but never the reference. But it’s not necessary in my opinion as the freq response speaks for itself. From what I see is r11 is sideways upgrade to reference 1 plus more bass extension.

Also r11 has shadow flare so directivity should be better. Again on the top of it, it doesn’t need a stand. Due to the low distortion it can handle heavy eqing to match exactly the reference 1 if anyone is interested in doing so. The older uniq version on reference has more distotion if I remember correctly.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

KEF References are kind of more linear in mids but some people are reporting that the references series are less airy in highs than the R series.., but anyway the references series are also super low distortion, this is the Reference 4c center channel from amir

.Also no shadow flare on reference if m not wrong. S

In fact the original shadow flare is made using metal in References series, the orange circle it's the shadow flare

Reference has a bit more energy in 1khz-2khz, just a bit more, i guess the mids are better without EQ

 

[tecnogadget]

This is just my personal opinion after playing with parametric Eq for circa 10 years: you can very easily turn the response of the new R series to mimic The Reference to the point it would be extremely hard to tell them apart on a AB shootout.

If you can afford The Referece, you would get a beautifully crafted speaker assembled and polished by hand, with the signature of the technician and a measurement graph, meaning every unit is tested before shipping.
If your budget doesn’t allow you one, the R series are amazing speakers with a lot of Poured and borrowed technology from The Reference series, thus a much better price/performance offering. We are talking about x3 price increase or even more, but absolutely not a x3 increase in performance (the post above mine serves as a great example).

It is really a personal choice of available budget and ownership pride.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Im not sure how to compare these graphs because these graph are very different, but maybe the References has a bit of wider directivity? (?) maybe

 

[sweetchaos]

Im not sure how to compare these graphs because these graph are very different, but maybe the References has a bit of wider directivity? (?) maybe

Here's a better comparison:

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

hmm
I guess both looks like similar, and both are kind of narrow, but the Reference has more energy in 1khz~2khz, maybe thats why the reference in mids are more linear?
I mean mids measure very well

 

[ahofer]

Interesting. I heard the Reference 5s when I was auditioning a few years ago. It was the best sound I heard. Just didn’t want to sink $20k into 260 pounds of speakers (and it would have been quite a negotiation with the wife).

We’ve subsequently moved and have a bigger living room, makes me wish a little more that I had taken the plunge. Nonetheless, I didn’t think there was a huge difference to my Harbeths, although I couldn’t audition them side-by-side. It certainly is easier to move the Harbeths out of the way if I have to.

I DID compare the Reference 5s to the R7 in the same showroom, and the R7s seemed meaningfully worse. Unfortunately, no ability to properly level-match so FWIW only.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Your harbeth is not close to the references/r series in directivity control and also the KEFs use coaxial.
There is a lot of difference.

 

[ahofer]

Your harbeth is not close to the references/r series in directivity control and also the use coaxial.
There is a lot of difference.

I am FULLY aware of that, having been a denizen of this site for some years and consumed all the measurements. I am merely relating my auditioning experience. It would be interesting to try them side-by-side and level matched, but the dealer experience is not at that level...anywhere.

 

[Jukebox]

I had a complete Kef R500, 100, 200C system. Once I heard about the new Reference meta series I sold them all. When they're out, hope soon, will test Ref.1 and maybe pull the trigger. I will use it without center, maybe some Q150 for surrounds. On the other hand the R Meta would also be appealing...should they'll be updated this year

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I had a complete Kef R500, 100, 200C system. Once I heard about the new Reference meta series I sold them all. When they're out, hope soon, will test Ref.1 and maybe pull the trigger. I will use it without center, maybe some Q150 for surrounds. On the other hand the R Meta would also be appealing...should they'll be updated this year

This year? Why
Even the references are from 2014 using the old uniq.. Expect first the reference metas. Or blades metas.. The R series are new.

 

[Crosstalk]

KEF References are kind of more linear in mids but some people are reporting that the references series are less airy in highs than the R series.., but anyway the references series are also super low distortion, this is the Reference 4c center channel from amir

In fact the original shadow flare is made using metal in References series, the orange circle it's the shadow flare

Reference has a bit more energy in 1khz-2khz, just a bit more, i guess the mids are better without EQ

But we know that r series have slight differences between their responses. So if we compare the center to its bookshelf I guess they will be different. Also, r series can be eqed to match the reference. So, it’s not worth the extra money. Again in room response isn’t going to be different. Depending on room. So even reference needs eq to sound neutral at listening spot like r series. So , we are only paying for cosmetic differences and little more bass extension(can be fixed with eq)

 

[Crosstalk]

This is just my personal opinion after playing with parametric Eq for circa 10 years: you can very easily turn the response of the new R series to mimic The Reference to the point it would be extremely hard to tell them apart on a AB shootout.

If you can afford The Referece, you would get a beautifully crafted speaker assembled and polished by hand, with the signature of the technician and a measurement graph, meaning every unit is tested before shipping.
If your budget doesn’t allow you one, the R series are amazing speakers with a lot of Poured and borrowed technology from The Reference series, thus a much better price/performance offering. We are talking about x3 price increase or even more, but absolutely not a x3 increase in performance (the post above mine serves as a great example).

It is really a personal choice of available budget and ownership pride.

I think at this time point of sound is the only thing that matters , since the reference is old, we can safely say get the biggest r you can afford and then don’t look back.or add two subs and look back only when we can afford blade or higher. Once coaxial, it’s hard to go back to any speakers.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

But we know that r series have slight differences between their responses. So if we compare the center to its bookshelf I guess they will be different. Also, r series can be eqed to match the reference. So, it’s not worth the extra money. Again in room response isn’t going to be different. Depending on room. So even reference needs eq to sound neutral at listening spot like r series. So , we are only paying for cosmetic differences and little more bass extension(can be fixed with eq)

bass extension cannot be EQ'd, only the slope 100hz->20hz.

If you increase the extension you are going to get a lot of distortion below the port tunning

But the woofer in references series are better, the slope it's stronger, the bass extension it's better and has better distortion..

References series has nice bass, but for example the Reference 3 it's a bigger tower than R7, noticeable bigger both use 2x 6.5'' drivers, and in references series you have 2 ports that you can change for better suit in your room


But for example you can always use subwoofers for get better bass in R series and save some money.., it depends of what you want, personally i find the Ref 3 a really good speaker. But for my wallet it's better to just add dual subs to my R7s.