New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[soundtrane]

How were you going to calibrate an all-analog speaker that has no DSP? And, BTW, there is no KH 850 model at all.

Apologies, that was meant to be 810.

The 5 monitors i have are the KH120 II - which have DSP. It is the KH810 that does not have DSP.

 

[unpluggged]

It is the KH810 that does not have DSP

That's right. Why did you think it could be calibrated with the MA 1 then, especially when Neumann describes pretty clearly in their materials that there is no way to use MA 1 with analog subwoofers. And they clearly say that in multichannel MA 1 alignments, analog monitors can't be used either.

By the way, they specifically list 5.0 setup among the possible.

 

[soundtrane]

the software did not give me a 5.0 option:

 

[soundtrane]

Multichannel Extension for MA 1

Precision alignment for truly immersive sound that translates reliably to all playback systems

www.neumann.com

This is the page I read. and here it really says nothing about the KH810 being 'incompatible' with the MA 1 extension. Also here, there is no listing of 5.0.

I am more than willing to accept a 'mea culpa' situation about this KH810 compatibility, but this still does not mean i should be made to get a fresh license key after a system OS reinstallation.

Btw, i just reinstalled the Ventura OS today from the scratch and here is what i get:

I am unable to understand what i am supposed to return to where.

 

[Qu@rk]

I would assume "return" means that you have to "unactivate" the license on one mac/pc to be able to activate it again on another one. That's the usual way for licenses bounded to a specific device and in fact very useful.

But I don't know whether there is an option like that in the MA1 software.

 

[soundtrane]

///

View attachment 338485

This screenshot is from the MA 1 manual which you can access through the MA 1 software by clicking on the top right hand corner "?" symbol.

In this document there is conflicting information - two places it mentions 5.0 is possible, whereas the software does not provide this option.


The PDF available in downloads does not speak of anything to do with multi-channel configurations. It says 'Automatic Monitor Alignment Instructions 1.7'


5.0 is not mentioned in this webpage for the MA 1 extension:

Multichannel Extension for MA 1

Precision alignment for truly immersive sound that translates reliably to all playback systems

www.neumann.com

 

[soundtrane]

I would assume "return" means that you have to "unactivate" the license on one mac/pc to be able to activate it again on another one. That's the usual way for licenses bounded to a specific device and in fact very useful.

But I don't knock whether there is an option like that in the MA1 software.

Well, in my case, it is the very same hardware - a Mac Studio machine. MA 1 was installed earlier on the Sonoma OS. And now i want to install it on the Ventura OS on the very same machine. There is nothing to 'unactivate' since that particular installation on Sonoma is gone forever after the internal SSD was initialised in the Recovery Mode of the machine before installing Ventura from a bootable drive attached to the machine.

 

[Qu@rk]

Yes, I understand that you are very upset and please take a deep breath. We all try to help here.

But the problem here is, with the new installation of your OS you practically wiped the license from your system before releasing it. I use MA1 as a two channel calibration only. I have no idea whether there is an option in the software to release/"unactivate" the license.

Do you have a full backup of your previous setup directly before the downgrade?
You coule restore the backup, release the license and reinstall the downgrade.
Just an idea.

 

[soundtrane]

Yes, I understand that you are very upset and please take a deep breath. We all try to help here.

But the problem here is, with the new installation of your OS you practically wiped the license from your system before releasing it. I use MA1 as a two channel calibration only. I have no idea whether there is an option in the software to release/"unactivate" the license.

Do you have a full backup of your previous setup directly before the downgrade?
You coule restore the backup, release the license and reinstall the downgrade.
Just an idea.

Qu@rk, I am not upset, all of this just pisses me off. heh. And i do appreciate your posts, thank you.

I did try the 'restore backup' first - and that was when the license key i have would not work and the software would just reload the page that asks for the license key again and again in an infinite loop.

 

[Qu@rk]

Please understand that downgrading the OS incl. a full wipe/factory reset is a rather unusual use case that is difficult to predict. The MA1 licensing thingy is still in a very early stage and Neumann has to learn to improve the software and the documentation.

I know that's not very helpful in your situation.

Please try to relax, listen to good music and wait for a response from Neumann, they will help you as soon as possible, maybe already next week.

Happy New Year!

Edit: typos

 

[soundtrane]

Please understand that downgrading the OS incl. a full wipe/factory reset is a rather unusual use case that is difficult to predict. The MA1 licensing thingy is still in a very early stage and Neumann has to learn to improve the software and the documentation.

I know that's not very helpful in your situation.

Please try to relax, listen to good music and wait for a response from Neumann, they will help you as soon as possible, maybe already next week.

Happy new year!

I dont agree with you about the OS - i feel that it should be of no consequence if the OS is reloaded or changed. And i am only goingone step back, not ahead, so evidently this is not a compatibility issue with Ventura.

<The MA1 licensing>
All i am saying is that I expected a more sensible approach than what it is as of now. I am a guinea pig here. After paying quite some money towards the speakers, sub and the mic + software...

And I am relaxed about it, since there is nothing i can do until Neumann responds with remedies. Hah!

Tomorrow i plan to use my Umik2 and REW... Working day for me, the 1st of Jan...

And a Happy New Year to you and others on ASR, be well !!

 

[Chnoeldh]

At the first stage where it test the output level it mutes the speakers. Just raise the volume. That's the way it works. Did my first calibration (120 II) yesterday and it made me confused too at first

Thanks. Re-installing did the trick for me.

 

[support_neumann]

licencse key issues:

I purchased the MA 1 extension on 2nd December from Thomann EU online, and was sent a license key.

I had a new Mac Studio which came preloaded with Sonoma. I initially installed the MA 1 on this OS. However, due to other issues and generally to avoid becoming a 'beta tester' for Sonoma, I downgraded the OS to Ventura, doing it the proper way (recovery mode, initialise internal ssd etc etc).

After this, when i installed the MA 1 software, the page came in which the license key was asked for. I entered the license key but the software kept going in a loop asking for the license key again and again.

I asked a guy who works with the local Neumann dealer and he tells me that a new license key would have to be gotten from Neumann factory in the case of a reformat and reinstallation. Really...

Well, i discovered all this on Friday 15th. The Thomann rep tried to help me by trying to reach Neumann, but there was no one there. I was asked to wait until Monday 17th, but then Thomann sent me an email stating that i should contact the manufacturer in the case of any software issues.

A few days later another guy from the local Neumann sales tells me there is a way to 'save the license key in the cloud' so it can be used again after a reinstall. Really...


I have a few qualms here.

This "get license key from factory' business is not only is this HIGHLY cumbersome, it is simply too much to expect me as a legitimate buyer who has paid for this software to experience down time of the kind i have faced. Why dont you switch to iLok or something if you are so touchy about the software being used differently from what you want (installed on a different machine or whatever).

The software DOES NOT provide ANY kind of feedback - i kept entering my license key and it kept going in a loop asking for the license key again and again. Could they have not programmed in a simple message to the user saying whatever the problem is and providing a path to a remedy??

The software help is accessed by clicking on a '?' on the top right corner, this leads to a webpage which lists out the procedure to use the MA 1 software. Even here - there is absolutely NO mention of 'new license key needed' or 'save license key in the cloud before anything'.

It has been mentioned here previously, there is no way to do a 5.0 calibration. Moreover the KH810 sub cannot 'participate' in a MA 1 calibration procedure because if does not have DSP even if it has a 7 channel analogue I/O with bass management etc., and is generally considered a higher model than the KH750, which has only a 2 channel analogue I/O.

Now, it is not a great assumption that EVERYONE in the world is on holiday at this time of the year, but please don't get me wrong - i am not holding a grudge against the people at Neumann for going out on a holiday... But i was not on holiday and I am sure, so were LOT of people across the world. I have had to waste a HUGE amount of time and i am still waiting for Neumann resuming work in 2024 for any resolution. When was the last time you needed to contact the manufacturer for a license key to reinstall software?, I dont recall this kind of situation happening even with Protools which was notorious being inflexible but it has been some time since they allowed a cloud based ilok...

I did have a work program chalked out and things were planned accordingly. In fact I made ALL the cables I would need even before the speakers and sub arrived, audio, AC power, as well as the CAT6 cables for the calibration process. When the speakers arrived, it took me and an associate less than a couple of hours to place the speakers and lay out the cabling and connect everything...

Markus from Neumann who posts here was very kind to respond to a private message from me here at ASR but he too was unable to find someone in Neumann who could help, many thanks to him for responding while he was on holiday...

I bought into the Neumann ecosystem only because i had a pair of Neumann KH120 first version speakers and i really liked them. Now i feel like i committed a gross mistake, i should simply got some other way of calibration (Sonarworks, Dirac, REW) or should have gone with Genelec.

-vin
Bombay, India

Hello Vin
here is the summary about your license issue on reinstalling MA1 on a formatted/new drive.
Our license solution is similar to many other ones, it calculates an unique ComputerID, partially based on the sytem partition GUID hard drive.So, when you repartition or format this drive, the GUID changes, and our license sollution cannot differ between "same machine" or "other machine" and therefore, you got stuck in having an already activated code and not able to deactivate the former one.

We are currently setting up well-defined customer service for such cases, and for next release a self-service portal, where you can manage such cases.

Best Regards
Alex from Neumann Support

 

[soundtrane]

Hello Vin
here is the summary about your license issue on reinstalling MA1 on a formatted/new drive.
///

Hello Alex,

Many thanks for your help in this matter, and a big thank you to Markus who was so helpful despite being on holiday.

I must say the setup is already sounding very good without any particular calibration applied to it. I do hope to get down to some calibration though, as soon as i get some time...

It would be great to have a self-service portal to address re-issue of license keys etc!

warmest regards
-vin

 

[VTKZ]

I have a question about the MA1 and multi-channel setup maybe someone have some answers :

I would like to upgrade from my current setup to multi-channel in the near future. So far I have used a pair of KH150 and 2x KH750 with a CraneSong Solaris DAC in a music / living room setup.

The source is a TV and a BluRay player via Toslink. I have now sold the DAC due to the lack of a remote and the desire for multi-channel.

My plan was now to switch to an AV Preamplifier (like a Marantz AV7706) so that I could easily can connect / use all sources (Oppo Darbee BluRay Player as well as Spotify) with an Remote.

Now to the question, is this even possible on the connection side in combination with the calibration with the MA1? Because as soon as I go out with the Front or Subwoofer XLR outputs of an AV receiver, the software will complain about "Low Output Signal detected" because every subwoofer doesn't get the full stereo signal?!

Maybe I have a mistake in my thinking, but I wanted to ask first whether and how I can achieve a Mutlichannel Setup.

As I said, the plan is to operate the existing system of 2x KH750 - 2x KH150 and in the future 2x KH80 as surround. The source would be an Oppo Darbee BluRay player and a Sony 4K TV, all connected via Toslink. Is it possible to use conventional AV preamps and still have the MA1 Option ?

 

[Qu@rk]

My multichannel setup:
Marantz AV7706
2 x Neumann KH 310 Front (still struggling with one or two KH 310 as center speakers)
2 x Neumann KH 120 Rear
2 x SVS SB-4000 Sub (Dual-Mono, in diagonally opposite corners of the room).

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for alignment.

The app allows different targets and you can store two presets in the AV7706. For example one preset for full range correction and one preset for correction e. g. only up to 500 Hz (or any other frequency of your choice).

Dynamic EQ of Audyssey and the AV7706 works incredible well if you listen mainly below reference levels.

The result is really great and more features (e. g. Audyssey Dynamic EQ) than a solution with MA-1 and with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app much easier to use.

 

[feitaishi]

From the perspective of the MA1, I have a stereo front with 2x KH750 and 2x KH310, and a second stereo system with 2x KH80. I use the secondary system as surrounds. I have both systems calibrated independently.
My interface is a RME UCX II. It comes with a great software called TotalMix FX. In Windows, it looks like this (4 mains + LFE):
View attachment 318364View attachment 318384

In TotalMix i can route LFE to front, this looks like this:
View attachment 318374

When listening to music in stereo, I get full advantage of my 2 subs in my stereo front.
When watching movies, the whole bass content from L+C+R+LFE comes from mains + subs, only surround content comes from the KH80, which is fine. I don´t need WASAPI or ASIO for this.

BTW i absolutely hate that whole LFE drama in mixes, especially surround music. You never know what amount of LFE is correct.
I practically never listen to surround content actually, because the bass never sounds correct. So i am probably not the best example.

does 2x750 help 310 with a better imaging?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

does 2x750 help 310 with a better imaging?

The DSP filter of KH750+MA1 does. There is actually barely a difference in my room between bass management on and off (off means: subs are muted, KH310 fullrange, but corrected by MA1) since i optimized my listening position.
But, if subs are playing, i need them to be in the corners to have a positive effect.
And, if 1 sub is in a corner, it hurts the stereo image in my room. So i need a second one in the other corner to balance it.
If i could place 1 sub near the middle i don't think it would make a difference.

 

[feitaishi]

The DSP filter of KH750+MA1 does. There is actually barely a difference in my room between bass management on and off (off means: subs are muted, KH310 fullrange, but corrected by MA1) since i optimized my listening position.
But, if subs are playing, i need them to be in the corners to have a positive effect.
And, if 1 sub is in a corner, it hurts the stereo image in my room. So i need a second one in the other corner to balance it.
If i could place 1 sub near the middle i don't think it would make a difference.

thanks

 

[kindleman]

hi
can i use the ma1 without the neumann software ? for example with sonarworks ? where can i find the mic file ? (this is for when im travelling)

i have the 310s + 1 750 , which made a big difference, however since ive started using the correction on the 750 i have noticed a little latency which is fine when mixing but feels a bit weird when playing an instrument, even just pluggin my guitar in the soundcard - without running any plugins.. so i was wondering if there is a way to momentarily switch off the neumann software
thanks