The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[mmi]

I think every single review have in the first few paragraphs saying he sells harman products, and take your own grain of salt

False

Technics SB-C700 Review (Coaxial Bookshelf)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Technics SB-C700 coaxial 2-way bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $1,699. The enclosure is built quite solid and the paint job is first class. Not that it matters but I was surprised to see no marking on the back as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Edit for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

 

[jcarrico]

Erin addressed this whole thing on his channel a few hours ago. It’s called Egos in Audio.

 

[restorer-john]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

That's just ridiculous. Every reviewer needs a reference with which to compare to. Amir bought the best speakers he could buy at the time. That they happen to be a brand they sell is irrelevant. They've been his reference for a long time.

 

[098765]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

One reasons is that Revel is speaker he uses and is a reference level speaker. When doing subjective test, it is way more easier and makes more valuable data with reference speaker fixed. Also it is hard to have variety of reference speaker in home LOL.

 

[Doodski]

Also it is hard to have variety of reference speaker in home LOL.

@amirm has lotsa speakers he could use but the Revels have fantastic frequency response.

 

[mmi]

That's just ridiculous. Every reviewer needs a reference with which to compare to. Amir bought the best speakers he could buy at the time. That they happen to be a brand they sell is irrelevant. They've been his reference for a long time.

Amir has financial incentive to mention Revel as much as possible. I can’t understand how anyone can think this isn’t conflicted or hypocritical in the context of supposed reasons for banning Erin.

Edit for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

 

[SDC]

Can you post a close-up shot of the tweeter gap? It’s hard to see what you mean in that photo.

Btw, report shows SB Acoustics SATORI TW29BNWG has leaking problems, right?

Then, Doesn't SB Acoustics need to recall them?

Yes the product needs additional sealing or back chamber.

AFAIK, SBA didn't mention it on the product page. so, faulty design, maybe?

 

[098765]

@amirm has lotsa speakers he could use but the Revels have fantastic frequency response.

on that's true. I missed it thanks!

 

[Doodski]

Amir has financial incentive to mention Revel as much as possible. I can’t understand how anyone can think this isn’t conflicted or hypocritical in the context of supposed reasons for banning Erin.

I don't see how they are related in any way. How you extrapolate one from the other is a mystery to me.

 

[dougi]

Yeah, I bought an amp from March, but the new 12V trigger feature was not working. It was confirmed after pulling it apart that he sent a prototype small board or something rather than production, so he sent me another and I had to fit that. So yeah, an example of lacking QC. I was also not too chuffed the bottom of the amp had a mix of black and chrome screws, rather than all black to match the finish.

 

[asr]

These whole reports are not for embarrassing or bullying someone.

For avoiding misunderstanding, I'd like to talk about two points.

First, we (the audio community in South Korea, which the post writer and I belongs to) had have high expectations to the Sointuva WG.
In Korea, like all other regions, there is so little information for the performance of loudspeakers. Most of specs from the manufactures are useless and some (almost) audio communities is filled with full of snake oils. It's because why we translate and study the papers of AES, the lectures of researchers, some main threads in here and the reviews with the spinorama (Thanks to Amirm and also Erin).
We can get significant information, however, approaching to a fine product is in another level. Many company making descent loudspeakers does not have supply chain here. So, if someone here want to buy speakers which is out of restricted options, he or she should pay more money for tax (about 20% of price), delivery fee (great speakers have a great package volume..) and take risks during shipping process (missing, damage..) and of defective product. Can you imagine that a person takes those entire burdens for just blaming someone?
The purchaser, the review and other members of our community had have expectations to the Sointuva WG, which is adopting the Purifi units and shows the terrific spinorama in Erin's review. That's why we analyzed the speakers.

Second, we have been worried about Alan March. Many of us had mentioned that he will be hurt to being criticized on he's own product, so we had trimmed the message for Alan March respectful but containing cardinal suggestion by cross-checking ourselves. (we don't want to break business with Alan March. Then or now, there have been people who want Sointuva WG.) But the feedback of him was so disappointing. So, we decided to argue here for the serious response. (We hope that, at least, he just recognizes these issues and makes them correct.) Because the series of tests and communications had proceeded for over 2 months, and there are some possible misunderstandings by different mother tongues, some members here may be considered that these report have impolite intent, which is actually not. However, we will have no personal feelings to Alan march, if he shows appropriate coping process.

 

[Newman]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then,

The traffic police don’t have to follow the speed limit . That’s not hypocrisy. Even if Amir was using this site to promote products he sells, there is nothing wrong with using a site you own and pay for to promote your own products while not allowing others to use it to promote their products. Not a thing wrong with that!

You need to announce your personal interest in attacking the owner of this site so repeatedly.

 

[mmi]

I don't see how they are related in any way. How you extrapolate one from the other is a mystery to me.

Amir runs a web forum that generates huge amounts of traffic for various audio products. In many cases it is first page listing in google for a particular product.

In many of those reviews Revel is used as a subjective reference, with subjective favourability often being given to the Revel reference.

Amir sells Revel products, and there is no disclaimer on many reviews using Revel speakers as a reference of this fact.

To avoid any concerns of a potential conflict of interest, I would not use Revel as a reference if I were in such a position. At the very least every single mention of Revel or any other brand Amir sells should have a disclaimer. This should be patently obvious.

Erin has been publicly criticised here by Amir for using affiliate links, YouTube monetisation and patreon donations and told this creates potential conflicts of interest. I find this hypocritical, given the above.

Edit for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers

 

[Doodski]

Amir runs a web forum that generates huge amounts of traffic for various audio products. In many cases it is first page listing in google for a particular product.

In many of those reviews Revel is used as a subjective reference, with subjective favourability often being given to the Revel reference.

Amir sells Revel products, and there is no disclaimer on many reviews using Revel speakers as a reference of this fact.

To avoid any concerns of a potential conflict of interest, I would not use Revel as a reference if I were in such a position. At the very least every single mention of Revel or any other brand Amir sells should have a disclaimer. This should be patently obvious.

Erin has been publicly criticised here by Amir for using affiliate links, YouTube monetisation and patreon donations and told this creates potential conflicts of interest. I find this hypocritical, given the above.

I still don't see how Erin and @amirm are intertwined in some duality of ethical matters. They are separate and different matters. If you where to postulate that @amirm should not use Revels that would be that but to combine Erin and Amir together is a stretch of ideas.

 

[thin bLue]

listen, guys. I've had a rather emotional day, so whatever Erin beef with Amir is, and I'm sure it's well founded, I'd appreciate it enormously if you could just leave this thread with high fidelity in peace, until we can figure this lovely way of Breakthrough with Sointuva WG out.

 

[restorer-john]

To avoid any concerns of a potential conflict of interest, I would not use Revel as a reference if I were in such a position.

You're not in such a position, so it's irrelevant. They are a recognized reference speaker and one that doesn't cause undue arguments. If it were Wilson or B&W there would be even more criticism.

What speakers do you suggest he use?

 

[mmi]

listen, guys. I've had a rather emotional day, so whatever Erin beef with Amir is, and I'm sure it's well founded, I'd appreciate it enormously if you could just leave this thread with high fidelity in peace, until we can figure this lovely way of Breakthrough with Sointuva WG out.

Sure, I’ll leave it. However please remember the OP and Amir are the ones that brought Erin into the conversation questioning his motive in not publishing certain distortion specs.

 

[mmi]

You're not in such a position, so it's irrelevant. They are a recognized reference speaker and one that doesn't cause undue arguments. If it were Wilson or B&W there would be even more criticism.

What speakers do you suggest he use?

Anything he doesn’t sell. There are plenty to choose from. Over and out.

 

[Doodski]

Sure, I’ll leave it.

It's, "What about'ism" what you are proposing. What about this person and what about the other person etc etc.

 

[amirm]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

Every such review has a disclaimer: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f35-speaker-review.12053/

Once in a great while I forget but otherwise, I am religious about such disclaimers. And also saying immediately on top who send me the product. Show me other reviewers doing this. You won't find it.

I have also recommended against Harman products. Latest example: JBL A180: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-a180-tower-speaker-review.34846/

I can't recommend the JBL A180. It is tough to say this but I just can't. If I recommend something, I like the chances to be 90% you will like it and I can't be assured of this.

Of course, the foundation of research we rely on in our review is created by the same forces that joined Harman in later years and influenced their products. The fact they do well in testing then should not be a surprise or a sign of my cheating somehow.

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

So I suggest you point your criticism to video reviewers that end the review with, "click on the link below and I get some commission." Not me.