KEF R series (2018) vs REFERENCE(2014?!)

[Jukebox]

This year? Why
Even the references are from 2014 using the old uniq.. Expect first the reference metas. Or blades metas.. The R series are new.

That's what I was saying... Reference should be next as the rumors goes because they are older. But probably in a year or two the R will follow

 

[Crosstalk]

bass extension cannot be EQ'd, only the slope 100hz->20hz.

If you increase the extension you are going to get a lot of distortion below the port tunning

But the woofer in references series are better, the slope it's stronger, the bass extension it's better and has better distortion..

References series has nice bass, but for example the Reference 3 it's a bigger tower than R7, noticeable bigger both use 2x 6.5'' drivers, and in references series you have 2 ports that you can change for better suit in your room


But for example you can always use subwoofers for get better bass in R series and save some money.., it depends of what you want, personally i find the Ref 3 a really good speaker. But for my wallet it's better to just add dual subs to my R7s.

R11 has two ports. Its cheaper than Reference 3, has more woofers. It can be eqed to add more bass without distortion. Anyway R or Reference cannot handle subbass well. Its not worth paying extra for that capability. So, just add two subs which destroys the reference out of water and be done with it. There is no advantage for going reference if subs are planned.

 

[Crosstalk]

That's what I was saying... Reference should be next as the rumors goes because they are older. But probably in a year or two the R will follow

R will not get any update soon. So dont have to worry. Reference was good when they came but now it losts its specaility that except bass extension we get everything on the R series. Just add subs and it beats the reference easily. What subs are good to match R11s?

 

[Crosstalk]

Im not sure how to compare these graphs because these graph are very different, but maybe the References has a bit of wider directivity? (?) maybe

Wider directivity and room will start to interact more. Its not fair to compare a center speaker with bookshelf due to two woofers in horizontal confguration. Ideal would be R3 vs Reference 1. If price matched R11 vs Reference 1 as they are both 'stereo' speakers not a center and LR speakers

 

[TurtlePaul]

I think the Reference Series including larger neo magnets, more driver venting, better ports and more cabinet bracing. These should decrease distortion, but distortion doesn’t lead to preference in a strong way.

Maybe it should be expected that the reference range would have better power handling than the R series. Unfortunately, the R3 was tested right when Amir was tweaking his distortion testing and we dont have a like for like spin of a Reference vs. R series with the same driver count - e.g. R3 vs Reference 1.

 

[Crosstalk]

I think the Reference Series including larger neo magnets, more driver venting, better ports and more cabinet bracing. These should decrease distortion, but distortion doesn’t lead to preference in a strong way.

Maybe it should be expected that the reference range would have better power handling than the R series. Unfortunately, the R3 was tested right when Amir was tweaking his distortion testing and we dont have a like for like spin of a Reference vs. R series with the same driver count - e.g. R3 vs Reference 1.

But if both have distortions below audible range, why should we spend more on things which are not useful? both do not have audible distortion from mid to highs I mean. For lows, both needs good subs.

 

[KMO]

KEF particularly seem to suffer from this misconception that there's no difference between their speakers because all their Uni-Qs look visually similar to each other from the front, yet distinct from the competition. So they're often perceived as all "just Uni-Q" in a way other manufacturers range aren't perceived as all "just cones".

The Reference and R series drivers are incredibly different in construction, and significantly different in performance. You're paying for a much lower-distortion neodymium drive system. Amir's measurements confirmed the Reference 4c Uni-Q performing way better in distortion than the R3. (Although how much that's audible, who knows).

 

[Jukebox]

What subs are good to match R11s?

I have 2x SVS SB3000 in my sistemy that I use for music and movies. More than enough for my needs.

 

[Crosstalk]

KEF particularly seem to suffer from this misconception that there's no difference between their speakers because all their Uni-Qs look visually similar to each other from the front, yet distinct from the competition. So they're often perceived as all "just Uni-Q" in a way other manufacturers range aren't perceived as all "just cones".

The Reference and R series drivers are incredibly different in construction, and significantly different in performance. You're paying for a much lower-distortion neodymium drive system. Amir's measurements confirmed the Reference 4c Uni-Q performing way better in distortion than the R3. (Although how much that's audible, who knows).

Distortion is audible depending on frequency at which and the amount of distortion in percentage. From the graphs, R series already has distortion which are inaudible except in bass( use subs here ). Reference has even lower distortion in bass, but again its not so extended to sub regions and we still need a sub. Infact R with a good sub will easily outclass the Reference. I saw a post by someone here who has both and he tried eqing and he mentioned that upon eqing it was hard to tell which one was which. I think KEF made a mistake by providing their state of the art tech for lower price that unless finishing of cabin is desirable soundwise, its not worth the money.

Look at Reference 1, its 5000 and needs a good stand to perform which is going to cost even more. Instead get a R11 and get same performance and a bit of extra low bass extension without distortion at lower loudness levels. Its just my finiding comparing their measurements. I can be wrong.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Amir's measurements confirmed the Reference 4c Uni-Q performing way better in distortion than the R3. (Although how much that's audible, who knows).

R3 and reference 4c have very similar distortion, maybe the R3 have even lower distortion..

Maybe you didn't read the R3 distortion it's at 105db.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I have 2x SVS SB3000 in my sistemy that I use for music and movies. More than enough for my needs.

I really want to try 2x sb4000 or 2x sb3000 cross at 80hz with minidsp, these subs are awesome

 

[KMO]

I think KEF made a mistake by providing their state of the art tech for lower price that unless finishing of cabin is desirable soundwise, its not worth the money.

It won't be a mistake, unless the total number of people who decide to buy an R series instead of a Reference as a result of the R series being "too good" significantly outstrips the number who decide to buy an R series instead of something from a competitor.

And also, if you get an R11 instead of an Reference one, at the same price, I suspect KEF makes a similar profit. They hardly lose out by you buying the mass-market made-in-China model rather than the bespoke UK one. (Although they would certainly have made a profit if you'd bought the Ref 1 stand!)

 

[Crosstalk]

It won't be a mistake, unless the total number of people who decide to buy an R series instead of a Reference as a result of the R series being "too good" significantly outstrips the number who decide to buy an R series instead of something from a competitor.

And also, if you get an R11 instead of an Reference one, at the same price, I suspect KEF makes a similar profit. They hardly lose out by you buying the mass-market made-in-China model rather than the bespoke UK one. (Although they would certainly have made a profit if you'd bought the Ref 1 stand!)

Made in China is not a criteria to turn them down. End of the day if it outperforms many UK and Europe made stuff, who cares. Reference is for those people who cares about those details imo, but end of the day sonic advantage is very minimal.

 

[KMO]

Made in China is not a criteria to turn them down. End of the day if it outperforms many UK and Europe made stuff, who cares.

That wasn't my point - I was just saying that you're getting more for your money - a tower instead of a bookshelf - because of the mass production. Not because the Reference One is "overpriced".

There won't be a significantly bigger mark-up on the Reference series, so they're not losing much if anything by you choosing the R11 instead of the Reference One. If you chose the R3 instead of a Reference One, okay, that's getting less money.

 

[TurtlePaul]

But if both have distortions below audible range, why should we spend more on things which are not useful? both do not have audible distortion from mid to highs I mean. For lows, both needs good subs.

That rabbit hole goes all the way down to saying you should just buy paper cones and soft domes. Are all other drivers just marketing inaudible differences with exotic materials and construction?

 

[Crosstalk]

That rabbit hole goes all the way down to saying you should just buy paper cones and soft domes. Are all other drivers just marketing inaudible differences with exotic materials and construction?

What is wrong with paper cones and soft domes ? if they measure well, you won’t notice any difference from another material. It’s not a rabbit hole it’s how things work.

 

[Crosstalk]

That rabbit hole goes all the way down to saying you should just buy paper cones and soft domes. Are all other drivers just marketing inaudible differences with exotic materials and construction?

Exotic materials without good measurement are marketing bullshit

 

[TurtlePaul]

What is wrong with paper cones and soft domes ? if they measure well, you won’t notice any difference from another material. It’s not a rabbit hole it’s how things work.

Nothing, I am listening to treated paper cones and soft silk domes right now. But manufacturers don't seem to be able to charge more than $1000/pair for those, so for marketing purposes we have this distortion chase - understanding that reaching low distortion below 100 hz is hard but in the midrange we have had low enough distortion for decades.

 

[Great Egret]

As someone who owns a pair of "The Reference 3's" and compared them to the R series, build quality of the R series doesn't come close to that of the reference series.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

As someone who owns a pair of "The Reference 3's" and compared them to the R series, build quality of the R series doesn't come close to that of the reference series.

Build quality in references are amazing about that, I love how the Ref3 looks



It's my favorite floorstanding