Has civility on ASR declined recently?

[JaccoW]

I agree with everything you said except calling someone a liar. While it may often be justified and true, I don't think it is ever civil. However, if someone IS telling lies, in many situations being civil is less important than making sure that their lies do not go accepted as fact, which may be what you meant.

That is very culture- and context-bound. In court for example would say "Surely you must be mistaken. I have evidence that contradicts that statement." but in certain cultures, like the Netherlands, there would very likely be a much more direct response. Even calling it out directly. Now, calling someone a liar is often rude, but most Dutch people have no problem saying "That is simply not true."

I have found in debates it often helps to point out to the audience if someone is using a logical fallacy. It makes it easier to follow along.

All this talk of lying reminds me of the time the US ambassador in the Netherlands got into hot water with the Dutch press because he lied about Dutch politicians being set on fire years before, denying he ever said that later and not wanting to answer any questions about it... so every journalist in the room started asking him about it. Politely of course. XD
He stopped being the Dutch ambassador on Jan 17th 2021.

It’s Lying Pete Hoekstra’s first day as the US Ambassador in the Netherlands - Dutchreview

P.s. If you ever see someone writing in extremely long English sentences, with lots of commas in there, they are probably either Dutch or German.

 

[litemotiv]

Now, calling someone a liar is often rude, but most Dutch people have no problem saying "That is simply not true."

That's true, and similarly passive responses like "Uh huh" are considered very rude In The Netherlands, since the Dutch pride themselves in direct but honest communication. It may be considered more aggressive to say "Uh huh" than saying something like "You don't know what you're talking about" (Je weet niet waar je het over hebt). Dutch communication can be crude but the directness is generally also seen as a sign of honest intentions, which works as a pacifier in arguments.

In other languages such as English the rules of engagement are quite different, which can lead to quick escalations if each side is following their own cultural approach without knowing the other person's background.

 

[mhardy6647]

That is very culture- and context-bound. In court for example would say "Surely you must be mistaken. I have evidence that contradicts that statement." but in certain cultures, like the Netherlands, there would very likely be a much more direct response. Even calling it out directly. Now, calling someone a liar is often rude, but most Dutch people have no problem saying "That is simply not true."

I have found in debates it often helps to point out to the audience if someone is using a logical fallacy. It makes it easier to follow along.

All this talk of lying reminds me of the time the US ambassador in the Netherlands got into hot water with the Dutch press because he lied about Dutch politicians being set on fire years before, denying he ever said that later and not wanting to answer any questions about it... so every journalist in the room started asking him about it. Politely of course. XD
He stopped being the Dutch ambassador on Jan 17th 2021.

It’s Lying Pete Hoekstra’s first day as the US Ambassador in the Netherlands - Dutchreview

P.s. If you ever see someone writing in extremely long English sentences, with lots of commas in there, they are probably either Dutch or German.

or... at least they were, a generation or two back

I will never forget my high school German teacher admonishing us that the verb was on ze bitter end of ze sentence.
I realized that, given the sentence structure and the way numbers are said (e.g., 21, einundzwanzig) -- Germans must be clairvoyant.

As an aside, I - ahem - minored in German in college... so, yeah, I really did earn that liberal arts degree

I was thinkin' this discussion was off-topic, but that got me to reflectin': "German" and "civility" go hand in hand!
Germans bein' so easygoin' about stuff, and all.

 

[JaccoW]

That's true, and similarly passive responses like "Uh huh" are considered very rude In The Netherlands, since the Dutch pride themselves in direct but honest communication. It may be considered more aggressive to say "Uh huh" than saying something like "You don't know what you're talking about" (Je weet niet waar je het over hebt). Dutch communication can be crude but the directness is generally also seen as a sign of honest intentions, which works as a pacifier in arguments.

In other languages such as English the rules of engagement are quite different, which can lead to quick escalations if each side is following their own cultural approach without knowing the other person's background.

What the British say and the Dutch understand

 

[BDWoody]

What the British say and the Dutch understand

Don't know why that brought this to mind...

 

[Raindog123]

P.s. If you ever see someone writing in extremely long English sentences, with lots of commas in there, they are probably either Dutch or German

Comes hand in hand with insanely long words. What other language would you find

Kindercarnavalsoptochtvoorbereidingswerkzaamhedenplan or

Hottentottensoldatententententoonstellingsbouwterrein !?

 

[2M2B]

Try posting on Hydrogenaudio if you want to see what a hard objectivist site like where any opinion that mildly subjective, It met with hostile replies & mods just repeating TOS#8 like bot. Stopped going there after they got super nasty when said I used 175kbps Musepack when 192kbps AAC & Vorbis would artifact way more than their DBT threads showed. Pretty sure the Musepack dev team had to make off site for tuning/coding after they called out the infamous DBT by a user claiming 180kbps Vorbis outperformed MPC.

I've a done many ABX tests on Vorbis I never posted, Gave up taking it seriously when they claimed 96kbps VBR Vorbis was better than 128kbps MP3 or MPC. But when I tried a ambient song with post rock vibes 96k ogg sounded like it was in mono or like it was struggling with the treble.

 

[Astrozombie]

It's everywhere not just on the internet.

 

[Thunder22]

I have noticed an increase in combative and insulting posts on ASR over the last couple of months--mostly, but not always, by new members. The posters definitely have not seemed to heed the message at the top of every forum page to Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. For those of you that have been here longer than I have, is this normal, or is it truly getting worse? I have been a member and sometimes moderator on a lot of Internet forums on many different subjects over the last 25 years. This behavior is not at all uncommon--except here. I have seen it destroy other sites by driving off the posters that had genuine knowledge to share. One thing I really like about this site is that the members generally do a very good job of leveling their disagreements at ideas, not at people, and are usually open minded and ready to learn. Is the site's popularity starting to attract a different kind of poster, or have these types always come, flamed out, and then slunk away? Or am I just reading the site more and seeing posts I might would have missed in the past?

Note to moderators: If this is the wrong forum for this, please move it. If it is unacceptable for any reason, please delete it.

I am wondering what posts you find "combative" or 'insulting"? Would you care to share any in particular? Perhaps you would prefer to paraphrase to protect the guilty.

 

[Yuhasz01]

I have not noticed the problem myself and I read forum every evening. But I must say I ignore —don’t read whole post—-any comments or observations without some objectivity and data to present. This forum has the least BS of any 6-8 I follow regularly.

 

[JRS]

A little bit of both I think. I am a relatively new member and while this forum prides itself on measurements and factual debate, as soon as we get into more opinion-related topics there can be some strongly held beliefs that clash. And with everyone having more times on their hands those threads show up more often.

Add to that that most people are not used to debating people with vastly differing opinions or backgrounds to them and you run into some rough edges.

I remember spending an entire day on a campsite just talking with a pair of older Texan libertarians while I am a strong proponent of social democracy bordering on extreme left-wing. We disagreed on a lot of political things but we all enjoyed the debate. We even shared our breakfast items for a luxurious meal.

Interesting: my wife and I had a similar experience a few years back while camping. We ended up next to some um lets call then libertarians, certainly close enough. I am left of Sanders but pride myself on being very well informed, and not one to mince words when the occasion calls for it. In any event between the campfire, some good beer and a few edibles I was only too happy to share, we had an amazing multiway discourse that touched on an erray of hot button topics but never an uncivil word was raised. I discovered in the process that we had far more in common than one could imagine and it's all about getting rid of labels, and talking tangible matters in specific terms.

I was impressed that they weren't idiots and/or fools and you can be sure it cut both ways. Amazing what a little shared space and comraderie can do. It was truly a night to remember.

 

[raif71]

or... at least they were, a generation or two back

I will never forget my high school German teacher admonishing us that the verb was on ze bitter end of ze sentence.
I realized that, given the sentence structure and the way numbers are said (e.g., 21, einundzwanzig) -- Germans must be clairvoyant.

As an aside, I - ahem - minored in German in college... so, yeah, I really did earn that liberal arts degree

I was thinkin' this discussion was off-topic, but that got me to reflectin': "German" and "civility" go hand in hand!
Germans bein' so easygoin' about stuff, and all.

I just came across this german word recently.... "weltanschauung". The person using it is not german but he prefers to use this word coz I guess no other word describes the situation or what he talks about properly.

 

[mhardy6647]

I just came across this german word recently.... "weltanschauung". The person using it is not german but he prefers to use this word coz I guess no other word describes the situation or what he talks about properly.

Very fitting given the Zeitgeist, ja?


EDIT: Oh, and there's also Weltmüdigkeit.

 

[JRS]

I'm all for freedom to discuss opinion' but lately there has been a proliferation of "opinion threads" on subjects that aren't related to ASR and audio related things and it's getting a bit tedious to see those threads get attention.

OTOH, I'd say it's quite interesting to see opinions from some very smart people who have quite dissimilar backgrounds. A couple have come up from which I learned a bit--one was a discussion of fusion and another EV's. Arguably, GHG's and climate change is a matter to some concern to all of us. I fail to see any harm in having far ranging discussions so long as things are kept civil. No one is forced to participate.

 

[litemotiv]

I just came across this german word recently.... "weltanschauung". The person using it is not german but he prefers to use this word coz I guess no other word describes the situation or what he talks about properly.

The German language has a lot of wonderful words that describe both the objective and subjective reality of a situation in a single astute observation.

Edit: Schadenfreude is another nice one

 

[mhardy6647]

The German language has a lot of wonderful words that describe both the objective and subjective reality of a situation in a single astute observation.

Edit: Schadenfreude is another nice one

I am all about Schadenfreude.

 

[acetogen]

Even if the discussions on ASR were not very polite, and they very much are, this site is miles above all "social media" type of sites. The text features, attachments, formatting features are second to none. You can get a good experience on Twitter but only if you carefully curate who you follow. Here you don't even need to do that.

 

[Saponetto]

Good point.

 

[Willem]

It helps if people realize the difference between facts and opinions, and what belongs in which domain. Both have their place, but they are not the same. Confusing them can lead to a lot of irritation.

 

[voodooless]

It helps if people realize the difference between facts and opinions, and what belongs in which domain. Both have their place, but they are not the same. Confusing them can lead to a lot of irritation.

Quickly these things tend to escalate into a "personal truth" or "personal facts" argument. It always annoys the hell out of me .