I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT.

[jsrtheta]

I’ve essentially upgraded my entire system over the past six months. I had no plans to change the cables. Why bother?

My speaker cables were approaching their 20th birthday but they seemed fine. The outsides looked good, so did the actual copper inside. Long ago, I bought a pair of Paradigm speakers. A good salesman because before I knew what was happening, I had spent $100 on cables. Even back then I wasn’t so dumb. I don’t know if they had a brand name but they had Cardes (Cardas?) stamped on the run of cable. Over the years,, their presence has been questioned. But $100. How bad could they be.

I don’t know anything about the interconnects. They were a step up from the ones that came in the box but more than that I can’t say. I certainly never spent serious money on them.

Full disclosure: I have no scientific knowledge about audio whatsoever.

That didn’t stop me from being a full blown cable skeptic. I sounded like I had a PhD in physics. “Don’t you realize that the measurements at the speaker end are identical no matter what you use? How can you waste money like that? A guy wired a system together with coat hangers and it measured the same! Confirmation bias! Oedipus complex!” Then I would walk away, shaking my head at another victim of the military/audio/media/industrial complex.

As part of my system makeover, I bought a used Arcam A19 integrated amplifier. The seller and I hit it off. He knew a lot about audio equipment. Dealer level knowledge, But he was part of the establishment, he wasn’t questioning the received knowledge.

He was appalled at my cables and went on at length about my need for decent cables. Almost out of sorrow at what I was missing. So I finally bought a set. Partly to shut him up, partly because it would be foolish to ignore something accepted by so many intelligent people. Cables by Q Accoustics, the speaker company. Residents in this “What Hi-Fi” Budget Buys Hall of Fame. Seriously. Used for about $75. Expecting absolutely nothing, I hooked them up.

I’m not going to search for adjectives to describe what happened. I’ll just say that the sound was different. Not better but different.

I was stunned. It wasn’t supposed to be different. All cables sound like same. The measurements prove it. But the difference wasn’t subtle, it was unmistakable.

To be continued in Part II.

You might want to look at the cable article here: https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_16_r.pdf

 

[JeffS7444]

Nothing that's written here concerns the scientific method. There will be no A/B/X testing. Anecdotal experience of the purest sort.

Mind you, this is a place for people who dig systematic inquiries into the workings of audio, and if that's not your thing, I'm not sure how much value you're going to get here.

Speaker cables don't necessarily sound the same unless L (Inductance), C (Capacitance) and R (Resistance) are sufficiently low, and Resistance in particular is a pretty big deal at the low voltages we're dealing with.

 

[fieldcar]

Relevant videos:

 

[ThatM1key]

I used to believe speaker wire is speaker wire (expect for gauge). When I used to use CCA wiring, over time I noticed my sound got worse and the speakers would cut in and out more. I noticed one day almost my entire wiring was green, I'm surprised it somehow still worked like that. I did more research and found out I should be using OFC wiring. When I got my first job, I bought some 12 gauge MaxBrite OFC. Did it make a difference? hell yeah it did. Over time I got better and better polk speakers in my HT setup. Replaced those junky brass jumpers with short 12 gauge OFC wires. The main reasons why I liked using OFC wire was for the efficiency, especially for long runs.

 

[DonH56]

The pros and cons of CCA have been extensively discussed elsewhere on ASR (and just elsewhere in general). I don't like CCA partly because of what you discovered -- that thin layer of copper can corrode, copper oxide is not very conductive, and if you break through the thin copper coating to contact to Al then the connection may go bad quickly.

 

[Doodski]

I figure that the biggest single difference in sound quality and the rest is to listen to Frank Z. My stereo always sounds better with FZ.

I've listened to Frank Zappa a fair amount too and the recording quality of most of his stuff is amazing especially for the era.

 

[Chrispy]

I've listened to Frank Zappa a fair amount too and the recording quality of most of his stuff is amazing especially for the era.

He was a perfectionist in many ways....and his library of his recordings was insane.

 

[escksu]

Yep...


http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil



JSmith

I don't know what kind of environment folks have, therefore I cannot give a definite YES or NO for shielding. There is simply no way to know for sure if noise is indeed an issue till the cables are connected and equipment turn-on. Most noise are extremely minor and not audible.

Having said that, I don't think most users live in exceptionally noisy environment. I don't think your house has giant motors/generators running or military equipment. Commerically sold equipment usually need to conform to regulations (eg FCC class B).

 

[Doodski]

He was a perfectionist in many ways....and his library of his recordings was insane.

When I provided warranty service for Denon the Frank Zappa releases where available through Denon.

 

[escksu]

The pros and cons of CCA have been extensively discussed elsewhere on ASR (and just elsewhere in general). I don't like CCA partly because of what you discovered -- that thin layer of copper can corrode, copper oxide is not very conductive, and if you break through the thin copper coating to contact to Al then the connection may go bad quickly.

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[escksu]

CCA (copper clad aluminum) speaker wire you get similar resistance if you go down 3 gauge....but they also have some mechanical problems nor is there really any reason to use them particularly unless really strapped for cash or something.....

Yes, I fully agreed. However, this also means I cannot just put a blanket statement and say ALL cables sound the same (keyword here is ALL). If someone decide to use a 30AWG wire, I don't think it will sound the same as 12AWG one.

So, I would say, as long as we adhere to some simple guidelines (some examples below), its ok.

1. ~12AWG is recommended.
2. Avoid CCA. No reason to use them.
3. Avoid solid core. Use stranded wire.
4. Use a high purity copper. ASTM C11040 specifies 99.9% purity for electrical copper wires. Hence, there is no reason to use one that is copper alloy (eg 70% copper). Oxygen free copper is pretty much the norm these days as well.
5. Shielding is not needed for speaker cables. IF installed in walls, do not run them together with power cables.

 

[JSmith]

12AWG is recommended.

JSmith

 

[escksu]

View attachment 145559



JSmith

Go read this. I found the thread.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

 

[escksu]

As perhaps a remote possibility in a poor cable?

I found the thread

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

 

[escksu]

Not too sure what that poster is referring to. Amir's measured cables in a number of cases, and sometimes found very expensive ones to have poor shielding, but no audible differences in any case that I can recall. And a study that claimed to show differences was lambasted for poor peer review and terrible methodology.



Spoiler alert, it means you're a human subject to human biases. I don't even fully trust anything I hear with level-matched A/B comparisons that take longer than a few hundred milliseconds to switch.

OK, I found the thread.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

 

[Chrispy]

I found the thread

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

Can you be more specific as to pointing at something that supports your previous post?

 

[escksu]

Can you be more specific as to pointing at something that supports your previous post?

Do you know what that thread is about? If you don't, then I don't think there is any point for futher discussion.

 

[Chrispy]

Do you know what that thread is about? If you don't, then I don't think there is any point for futher discussion.

Yes in general but what supports your particular point earlier? You a cable sniffer?

 

[escksu]

Yes in general but what supports your particular point earlier? You a cable sniffer?

ok, since your answer is Yes, good. Below is my post:

Actually amirm has already mentioned that cables do not sound the same, this is because of the resistance (esp. from those aluminum alloy ones).


No doubt I mistaken CCA for aluminum alloy, but I did specifically mention the word resistance. So, what do you think amirm was measuring and what is he trying to tell us? Why is he recommending 12AWG?

If you think resistance has absolutely no effect on sound, thats fine with me. I am not here to change your thinking or beliefs.

 

[Katji]

I get the feeling that the OP just wants to tell their story and won’t be particularly interested in attempts to explain their new found belief.

Agree, a nice way to say it though. The further hint is the capitals/yelling in the thread title...

To be continued in Part II.

Sometimes it's like the person starting their own little personal blog.