Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

[Wombat]

That wasn't even a Hard-Sal.

 

[pkane]

"These are the people with real ears that know how to listen."
too "personal" and it was edited out of from my post.

Can't get much more personal to an audiophile than to point out that their golden ears are made out of tin.

 

[Jimster480]

That's not a Soekris design, its a blatant copy of a DAC module sold by a DIY startup (Sosolar as he is known as) based in China.

The Soekris designer himself has waded into the discussion and acknowledged the "Hibiki" module designer's work.

Ah alright, thanks for clearing that up.
I noticed the design was slightly different than what Soekris had done.

God, that Head-Fi thread is physically painful to read. It's just endless accusations and sh*tposting by the hurt Schiit fans.

I don't know where amirm summons the patience to defend himself there. Nothing he says will convince those people. Like SBAF, they're a cult.

yes its sad that headfi has become a cult there. But when you have years of censored posts and blatent pushing of one brands products... well you will build a viewership that only appreciates what you are doing or has been sucked into what you are doing. An opinion that Schiit isn't the best simply isn't accepted at HeadFi so anyone who thinks otherwise will not participate in that forum overall.
Even in the headphone sections every thread becomes about how Schiit products are the best at driving this headphone.

Fascinating discussion... Anyway, it is very revealing to read about possible [not what it seems] interaction on the HF site? At any rate, could some engineer types here expound upon the tested virtues of say the Chord Hugo 2 and / or Chord DAVE components as a desirable alternative? As well, some more recommendations on a dac to build up a really solid desktop setup? Thinking about a Mjolnir Audio Dynalo Mk2 for the amp, researching for the dac. All recommendations appreciated... Note my current dac/amp is the Hugo 2 and COULD just use that set to line-out at what 3V and call it good?

Great site, appreciate having the alternative available that is [not tainted by crass commercialization / site monetization]? =)

As someone else mentioned, the Hugo2 has been tested here and found to measure wonderfully. Although the price tag is still quite steep.

At least the world now knows why nwavguy was banned from hf.

We all knew why, because he contradicted the status quo at headfi.

Depends on what you want to convince someone of. If it's the debate point that Amir's measurements are either a correct or incorrect way of going about it I don't mind.

If you like really expensive components with high distortion components, inability to reject noise over the USB bus, poor jitter/re-clocking, I don't mind that at all and not sure I would want to convince anyone about anything.

What I don't think is even debatable is that the measurements do shed light on another facet of equipment of all price points.

Yes exactly, I am being attacked on Massdrop aswell in several threads by schiit fanatics now claiming that this site is full of lies and malicious intent on destroying such a "wonderful brand" (schiit).

 

[Jimster480]

Well, this is an interesting turn of event. Jude post in that thread in head-fi that I am nwavguy. When I post my responde it says it is moderated! So I am going to post it here for people to see. It is very, very disappointing to see him go there.

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jude said: ↑​

amirm, at this point, I'm strongly inclined to agree with Currawong -- I feel very confident that I'm once again dealing with nwavguy. Welcome...back?​

Your accusation is patently false and uncalled for. I have no idea who NWAVGUY is. I expect such accusations from members, but not owner of this forum. I have provided my full history to anyone who wants to read. I have always and on every forum used my real name. I don't post under aliases. And don't like anyone from the industry doing the same. This includes NWAVGUY, atomicbob or whoever. If you want people to take your technical and professional experience seriously, you need to post under your real credentials so that it can be fully examined by readers.​

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In addition, I have disputed nwavguy's review and measurements of Behringer. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...eview-and-measurements-behringer-uca222.2036/​

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Furthermore, anyone with any technical background reading his contributions and mine see that we are very different people. He has much more hands on electronic design experience than I do for example. On the other hand, I have much more experience in other fields such as signal processing, acoustics, computer technology, etc. And of course on the business and industry side.​

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Our writing styles are also wildly different. He actually knows how to write proper English!

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I have made no personal accusations towards you Jude. Or anyone else. Yet you continue with those against me. And without foundation no less.​

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You need to read my posts in sound science here and see how much I battle objectivists there, defending much of people here like to see happen. Your moderator there can attest to that:​

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Furthermore, you have post your measurements and challenges to me in a thread that is inappropriate for it given the resentment from the regular readers of it. You should have post that in a new thread that was moderated and allowed for proper exchange of data to get to a consensus that members here and elsewhere could use.​

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To that end, my sincere apologies to all the owners and readers of this thread. It is not an appropriate place for this kind of back and forth in general and in the specific regarding measurements. It is creating resentment among people who have a lot in common (love of music, high fidelity, etc.).​

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Finally, I asked you to email me your project file for AP analyzer. That is what the membership is asking us to do, use common settings. The only way to assure that is to see what you have used so that I can replicate it here. You are refusing to do so. I hope members no longer ask me to work with you in this manner.​

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The above was triggered by me simply asking him to send me his Audio Precision Analyzer project file for the linearity measurement. He is refusing to do so.

Thats Okay Amir, I was also banned when I asked him to simply check into various schiit products that he claimed "had no flaws whatsoever".
When I pointed out that I could reliably reproduce these flaws he became angry and childish and told me I was "jumping to wild conclusions".
Upon telling him that there are no "wild conclusions" and only "repeatable bugs" which I could explain to him how to test he just removed my posting permissions and didn't reply for several weeks in PM.

It seems they have done the same to you now, someone also accused me of being "associated with nwavguy" because I literally shared some information from his blog from the past.... It seems that nwavguy = anyone who challenges their rulings or has different findings?

 

[Jimster480]

I have been reading the instrumented tests on this site for a while, but decided to register today because this discussion is just too good to pass up. It makes me wonder if some designers are introducing intentional distortions in an effort to create euphonic colorations. The controversy is all the more interesting as the Yaggi received so many glowing reviews from professional (paid) reviewers. Are they ISO certain euphonic colorations or is this a case of the emperor's new clothes? Perhaps they should be listening to needle drops.

It seems that actually they have different distortion characteristics per price point in order to have a perceived "upgrade".
I noticed that the Modi Multibit "sounded better" than the Fulla2, but that both sounded worse than my D30/A30 (or the D30 plugged into the Fulla2).

The power shutoff circuit is a crap shoot on the O2. Mine works as designed and properly shuts off with no hysteresis. I’d argue it is a weak point if the design. It I certainly testable and I don’t think it will damage your headphones if it only turns off and a on briefly while you test it. It will be interesting to see if after the batteries age it still properly shuts down.

I hate the switch on my o2 so I unplug the headphones every time I turn it on or off.

Very interesting regarding the reccomendations against analog audio. Schiit was pretty open about this. The manufacturer does not reccomend this dac to be used for analog operation. Schiit mentioned the issue was dealing with glitching. According to them they did. The designer of the AD DAC actually posted on their thread asking them about this. If you look at Jude's balanced linearity measurements you'd note that it does do better than 16 bit (117db , 122 db on the other channel)) even if you keep it to about a 1 db swing.

You didn't know about this? Its a DAC chip specifically not for use in audio, it has 0 crossing errors amongst whatever else.... They did write a really nice long story about how every company doesn't care about the quality of audio and only they do and that is why they are using a military (missile guidance) DAC instead of a normal DS DAC and how only they have done audio justice...
I bought their story and got the Modi Multibit.... and when it sucked I was confused. The difference is that I am a naturally objective person in everything I do and I already had some other devices to compare it against. For those without other devices or without an objective nature they may just be conditioned to think its great.

 

[Jimster480]

How many Schiit products have you owned?

I've had 4 separate units, all with flaws...

 

[palamudin]

And im just sittin here with 100$ silver box size of a pack of cigarettes perma hyped about the sound im getting on phones and digit audio t100 amp. No blown fuses, no cracks, no headphone 20 volt spikes. No mill grade components but seems to be working flawlessly.

 

[Jimster480]

And im just sittin here with 100$ silver box size of a pack of cigarettes perma hyped about the sound im getting on phones and digit audio t100 amp. No blown fuses, no cracks, no headphone 20 volt spikes. No mill grade components but seems to be working flawlessly.

That is the reality of hardware today, we can build things of such quality.

 

[Guermantes]

Actually most of the recording professionals use much different stuff to monitor the music they create that your listening to. I don't think you'll find a Yggy in 1 in 10,000 recording studios. Many that I'm familiar with use Benchmarks. These are the people with real ears that know how to listen.

While I'd like to share your positive view of recording professionals, I've found that quite a few are just as prone to questionable subjectivity as the lay listener when it comes to opinions on equipment and software. Some of these professionals are also responsible for the distortion and peak-clipping in over loud recording releases we often complain about. Of course, these are not people ASR members would associate with

I think what keeps audiophoolery out of the recording industry in general is the practicality and pragmatics (not to mention the economics) of recording work allied with an engineering vanguard that usually steers the ship on the right course with good science as its guide. I hope that this will continue to keep the audio jewellery out of the studios.

But fashion and status are strong social motivators and I'm sure they have an attendant psychoacoustic influence. I'm often concerned when friends come to me wanting advice on X audiophile cable and I try to steer them towards Canare, Belden or Neutrik alternatives. "This is what the pros use on the recordings you love! It's tried and tested. You really can't get any better and it is way cheaper than X," I say. I even offer to solder it together for them. But the response is usually, "Well, yeah, that's great but everyone on such-and-such forum is raving about this cable and it has all this exotic tech that the others don't!" The pro stuff is just too practical and boring. It doesn't matter what the professionals use -- people want something that will add value to their social capital. They want a Mercedes GLE, not a Land Rover Defender.

 

[garbulky]

It seems that actually they have different distortion characteristics per price point in order to have a perceived "upgrade".
I noticed that the Modi Multibit "sounded better" than the Fulla2, but that both sounded worse than my D30/A30 (or the D30 plugged into the Fulla2).


I hate the switch on my o2 so I unplug the headphones every time I turn it on or off.

You didn't know about this? Its a DAC chip specifically not for use in audio, it has 0 crossing errors amongst whatever else.... They did write a really nice long story about how every company doesn't care about the quality of audio and only they do and that is why they are using a military (missile guidance) DAC instead of a normal DS DAC and how only they have done audio justice...
I bought their story and got the Modi Multibit.... and when it sucked I was confused. The difference is that I am a naturally objective person in everything I do and I already had some other devices to compare it against. For those without other devices or without an objective nature they may just be conditioned to think its great.

I did know about Schiit's talk about it but I didn't see all the info Amir posted until now. It's nice to know a little bit more about the DAC. I tried the Gungnir MB and I liked it quite a bit. I felt it sounded different in a good way. But it was not without its flaws namely in (perceived) detail and lack of a remote. And in the end it didn't do enough for the price so it wasn't a keeper. If it had done better with subtle detail. But it did enough that I was interested in the Yggy but not interested in the lower end multibit options.

I've been rather jaded with most of the dacs on offer, either not sounding much better than my current dac or sounding worse (subjectively, non blind). So I've been essentially looking for something different which will tick the boxes I'm looking for.

 

[Jimster480]

I did know about Schiit's talk about it but I didn't see all the info Amir posted until now. It's nice to know a little bit more about the DAC. I tried the Gungnir MB and I liked it quite a bit. I felt it sounded different in a good way. But it was not without its flaws namely in (perceived) detail and lack of a remote. And in the end it didn't do enough for the price so it wasn't a keeper. If it had done better with subtle detail. But it did enough that I was interested in the Yggy but not interested in the lower end multibit options.

I've been rather jaded with most of the dacs on offer, either not sounding much better than my current dac or sounding worse (subjectively, non blind). So I've been essentially looking for something different which will tick the boxes I'm looking for.

So what did you buy now?
Or what are you using now if you are looking for something else?

 

[garbulky]

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Actually most of the recording professionals use much different stuff to monitor the music they create that your listening to.​

I don't think you'll find a Yggy in 1 in 10,000 recording studios. Many that I'm familiar with use Benchmarks.​

These are the people with real ears that know how to listen.​

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Have you had much experience with these professionals and "real ears"? The few I've met had pretty cruddy sound setups. It's a work based environment that's not really optimized for that last bit of quality. Obviously a few is not a judgment on every professional. But I think we end up lucky that we get the sound that we do in our systems.

 

[garbulky]

So what did you buy now?
Or what are you using now if you are looking for something else?

I'm using a DC-1->balanced to XPA-1 gen 2. Axiom m80 speakers which is what I was using when I tried out the Gungnir MB. I'm pretty patient and when I do end up making a purchase it's usually because I'm looking for something that will last me a long while. So I can wait. I plan to buy an AudioGd HE-1 preamp to run balanced in to an Yggy if I ever get around to it. Perhaps including stereo sealed subs to round out the bottom end. But right now I like my setup.

 

[Jimster480]

Have you had much experience with these professionals and "real ears"? The few I've met had pretty cruddy sound setups. It's a work based environment that's not really optimized for that last bit of quality. Obviously a few is not a judgment on every professional. But I think we end up lucky that we get the sound that we do in our systems.

I have met a couple "pros" with $150 headphones and setups that are much less resolving than mine, one guy had a setup that was 20+ years old.

 

[Guermantes]

Have you had much experience with these professionals and "real ears"? The few I've met had pretty cruddy sound setups. It's a work based environment that's not really optimized for that last bit of quality. Obviously a few is not a judgment on every professional. But I think we end up lucky that we get the sound that we do in our systems.

But I think you will find that the mark of a true professional is someone with the skills and (yes) talent to take whatever is available to them (whether "cruddy" or not) and still make quality recordings -- no luck involved.

 

[palamudin]

As a son of a guitar player ill tell you "pros" and "musicians" are either completely oblivious to "high fidelity" to the point of being prime targets for voodoo sales or like my father, he likes hendrix on a cassette player, radio, headphones, he doesn't bother himself with "fidelity" part but the emotions and techniques musicians produce. He also states that music is listened with your back not your front and if he really wants to find a flaw in a system he will (he found it on yamahas ns-1000 that i had, on my statics from metaxas i had, on my ushers s520 i had, literally every piece of equipment i had was flawed in exact same spot he complained about). People making and producing music are quirky AF.

On a side note, after A LOT of money wasted in audio i go by the rule of "do i like this sound and does it make me listen to the music or it makes me itch allover my body for a new purchase of something within audio chain". Some get to that point with whatever set of devices, some never do. Its a hobby and/or a passion. Some dont mind the measuring or the fact that turning it off/on might kill you, your pet or your equipment.

 

[DonH56]

I suppose there is a remote possibility that these clay-eared low-brow recording engineers actually do know what matters to the sound and $1k headphones and $100k systems are not it...

Though I think you would find a number of them do have very "resolving" systems, whatever that means, by professional (not audiophile) standards.

Musicians are another breed; most cannot afford "audiophile" gear, and as I've said before are perfectly happy listening to a cheaper system. They are more likely to comment upon the out-of-tune third in the chord (needs to be about 20 cents low) than the tweeter hiss or "macro- vs. micro-dynamic intelligibility corrupting the PRaT" (just read that in a review, not quite sure what to think, being a clay-eared low-brow engine-ear...)

IME/IMO - Don

 

[palamudin]

I suppose there is a remote possibility that these clay-eared low-brow recording engineers actually do know what matters to the sound and $1k headphones and $100k systems are not it...

Though I think you would find a number of them do have very "resolving" systems, whatever that means, by professional (not audiophile) standards.

Even as a kid i had the chance to hangout in few recording studios and boy their equipment didnt suit my taste. Flat, inorganic, sterile, everything contrary to what "audiophiles" search in their sound. I guess they need to know exactly how something sounds.
Another thing is, recording and producing studio technicians are 2 worlds apart, few of the producing ones i met have 5-6 sets of speakers so they know how it will sound on radio, tv, cheap fi, hi fi, etc. Nothing flat in Tannoys or Bladelius Thor for that matter. Producers i guess have their own reference based on experience, recording technicians just want to know how it actually sounds. With enough experience from your own reference/system and testing on commercial products you can literally produce on 2$ cans and still get epic results... so yea, i agree with your statement about 1k headphones and 100k systems.

 

[Guermantes]

I suppose there is a remote possibility that these clay-eared low-brow recording engineers actually do know what matters to the sound and $1k headphones and $100k systems are not it...

Yes, let me see, Yggdrasil ($3,849 AUD) or Neumann U87 ($3,659 AUD) . . . ?

 

[maxxevv]

You'll be surprised by the equipment that sound mixing / recording engineers used really.

A friend from my university days is a multi-award winning album recording engineer and he uses a pretty rudimentary Sony monitor of 20 year vintage. Not that he can't afford it nor does he lack potential sponsors for such stuff either. "It fits my workflow as I know exactly what to expect out of the sound at the end output, and its my workflow that gets my jobs done fast and fuss-free".