Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

[watchnerd]

I have been reading the instrumented tests on this site for a while, but decided to register today because this discussion is just too good to pass up. It makes me wonder if some designers are introducing intentional distortions in an effort to create euphonic colorations. The controversy is all the more interesting as the Yaggi received so many glowing reviews from professional (paid) reviewers. Are they ISO certain euphonic colorations or is this a case of the emperor's new clothes? Perhaps they should be listening to needle drops.

I think the current hype around NOS DACs is exactly that.....sound tailoring.

 

[Ron Texas]

I think the current hype around NOS DACs is exactly that.....sound tailoring.

I thought the NOS crowd liked to upsample or convert to DSD. Is this what you mean by sound tailoring?

 

[watchnerd]

I thought the NOS crowd liked to upsample or convert to DSD. Is this what you mean by sound tailoring?

That's one way.

But I've also read threads about people just using it in regular PCM mode.

In fact, the AK4490 chipset allows you to do just that and you can turn it on in certain DACs (TEAC, for instance, pretty sure my RME ADI-2 allows it, too).

I find this all incredibly ironic because....

1. Analog "rewarded" tweaking because everything was so flawed. Take my turntable -- I can play with VTA, alignment, VTF, cart loading, etc, to the point of going schizo because all those things really do change the sound, sometimes massively, sometimes subtley, many very measurable. Tube rolling is similar.

2. Digital makes most of that go away. Yay...more time listening to music, in theory.

3. Oh no...gear slut audiophiles don't like 'set it and forget it'. They want to tune their digital systems in manners similar to analog by swapping in new gear.

4. The irony being that tuning is so much easier in digital via DSP/digital EQ....but many eschew it for reasons that seem mostly about dogma.

5. Double irony is if people want to tune digital systems and not use DSP, they should look at speakers and the speaker/room or headphone/ear interaction....which they mostly don't do.

As further evidence of all this, Mike Moffatt at Schiit has an interview on DARKO where he slams delta-sigma DACs because they don't leave room to innovate, AKA tailor the sound....

 

[watchnerd]

Well, this is an interesting turn of event. Jude post in that thread in head-fi that I am nwavguy. When I post my responde it says it is moderated! So I am going to post it here for people to see. It is very, very disappointing to see him go there.

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jude said: ↑​

amirm, at this point, I'm strongly inclined to agree with Currawong -- I feel very confident that I'm once again dealing with nwavguy. Welcome...back?​

Your accusation is patently false and uncalled for. I have no idea who NWAVGUY is. I expect such accusations from members, but not owner of this forum. I have provided my full history to anyone who wants to read. I have always and on every forum used my real name. I don't post under aliases. And don't like anyone from the industry doing the same. This includes NWAVGUY, atomicbob or whoever. If you want people to take your technical and professional experience seriously, you need to post under your real credentials so that it can be fully examined by readers.​

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In addition, I have disputed nwavguy's review and measurements of Behringer. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...eview-and-measurements-behringer-uca222.2036/​

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Furthermore, anyone with any technical background reading his contributions and mine see that we are very different people. He has much more hands on electronic design experience than I do for example. On the other hand, I have much more experience in other fields such as signal processing, acoustics, computer technology, etc. And of course on the business and industry side.​

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Our writing styles are also wildly different. He actually knows how to write proper English!

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I have made no personal accusations towards you Jude. Or anyone else. Yet you continue with those against me. And without foundation no less.​

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You need to read my posts in sound science here and see how much I battle objectivists there, defending much of people here like to see happen. Your moderator there can attest to that:​

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Furthermore, you have post your measurements and challenges to me in a thread that is inappropriate for it given the resentment from the regular readers of it. You should have post that in a new thread that was moderated and allowed for proper exchange of data to get to a consensus that members here and elsewhere could use.​

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To that end, my sincere apologies to all the owners and readers of this thread. It is not an appropriate place for this kind of back and forth in general and in the specific regarding measurements. It is creating resentment among people who have a lot in common (love of music, high fidelity, etc.).​

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Finally, I asked you to email me your project file for AP analyzer. That is what the membership is asking us to do, use common settings. The only way to assure that is to see what you have used so that I can replicate it here. You are refusing to do so. I hope members no longer ask me to work with you in this manner.​

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The above was triggered by me simply asking him to send me his Audio Precision Analyzer project file for the linearity measurement. He is refusing to do so.

Back when I used to hang out on Head Fi's Sound Science forum, I always found castleofargh to be a reasonable guy.

I suspect he's just repeating the rumor he heard, as opposed to endorsing it.

 

[Jinjuku]

I have been reading the instrumented tests on this site for a while, but decided to register today because this discussion is just too good to pass up. It makes me wonder if some designers are introducing intentional distortions in an effort to create euphonic colorations. The controversy is all the more interesting as the Yaggi received so many glowing reviews from professional (paid) reviewers. Are they ISO certain euphonic colorations or is this a case of the emperor's new clothes? Perhaps they should be listening to needle drops.

You are preaching to the choir. I've always maintained that differences can be engineered in and then those differences marketed in audio-babble.

 

[Ron Texas]

I have a Grace M9xx. It has an AK4490 chip with 4 different filter settings. The slow rolloff filter starts around 4khz (Redbook) and is down, IIRC, 6 db @ 18 khz. It sounds dull compared to their "fast" (really medium) rolloff filter. That's a lot of messing with the frequency response and most people should be able to hear it. There are linear and minimum phase alternatives. I usually wind up listening to minimum phase and "fast" rolloff, but I think the difference between minimum phase and linear is not much. That's just me, and not any kind of advice. I got a deal on the Grace, and I am not sure it is worth $500. However, I am satisfied with it.

 

[watchnerd]

You are preaching to the choir. I've always maintained that differences can be engineered in and then those differences marketed in audio-babble.

I think those differences are termed 'innovation' by some.

 

[Ron Texas]

You are preaching to the choir. I've always maintained that differences can be engineered in and then those differences marketed in audio-babble.

I joined this forum because it is in line with how I view audio gear and the scene in general.

 

[watchnerd]

I have a Grace M9xx. It has an AK4490 chip with 4 different filter settings. The slow rolloff filter starts around 4khz (Redbook) and is down, IIRC, 6 db @ 18 khz. It sounds dull compared to their "fast" (really medium) rolloff filter. That's a lot of messing with the frequency response and most people should be able to hear it. There are linear and minimum phase alternatives. I usually wind up listening to minimum phase and "fast" rolloff, but I think the difference between minimum phase and linear is not much. That's just me, and not any kind of advice. I got a deal on the Grace, and I am not sure it is worth $500. However, I am satisfied with it.

Ron, Ron....how are you ever doing to be an audiophile when you call it 'dull'?

The words you're looking for are 'more analog' and 'more musical' and 'removes digital glare'.

Maybe blacker blacks, too?

 

[Ron Texas]

Ron, Ron....how are you ever doing to be an audiophile when you call it 'dull'?

The words you're looking for are 'more analog' and 'more musical' and 'removes digital glare'.

Maybe blacker blacks, too?

There was an obvious loss of high frequencies. Perhaps I am dull, lol. Yeah, blacker blacks are what we need.

The sound reminded me of a Caesar salad with just the right amount of anchovies, LOL.

 

[amirm]

I suspect he's just repeating the rumor he heard, as opposed to endorsing it.

Oh for sure. That is why I quoted him. That me being NWAVguy is beyond crazy

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

A slightly more correct translation, no I am not making it up, is

Schiit Kringla Kippa with Bifast Fraud USB module.

I think Ikea has better QC than Schiit.

How many Schiit products have you owned?

 

[Blumlein 88]

How many Schiit products have you owned?

You guess how many and I'll tell you if you are correct or close.

 

[RayDunzl]

I guess zero.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

I guess zero.

Was that absolute zero?

 

[mindbomb]

@amirm
Does the fact that the dac chips have a high capacitance explain the poor low frequency thd+n? And could the one sample with really high thd+n be due to instability from the high capacitance?

 

[maxxevv]

I have a Grace M9xx. It has an AK4490 chip with 4 different filter settings. The slow rolloff filter starts around 4khz (Redbook) and is down, IIRC, 6 db @ 18 khz. It sounds dull compared to their "fast" (really medium) rolloff filter. That's a lot of messing with the frequency response and most people should be able to hear it. There are linear and minimum phase alternatives. I usually wind up listening to minimum phase and "fast" rolloff, but I think the difference between minimum phase and linear is not much. That's just me, and not any kind of advice. I got a deal on the Grace, and I am not sure it is worth $500. However, I am satisfied with it.

Interesting about the AK4490 filters. I had the chance to listen to one a few years ago but didn't get to play around with those filters or know whichever they were set in. The owner that let me try it didn't fill me in on that. But my experience of listening to that on the HD650 was that it was too "syrupy" smooth to my liking, it was like waffles over-saturated with maple syrup, you just don't feel the texture anymore after a few short minutes. Not sure if its an apt description in that regard as the endstage implementation can have a pretty big impact on how it sounds too.

Fast forward to just a month back, I got myself a budget but pretty well put together ES9038Pro DAC and it has something like 6 filter settings. I toyed around with them and frankly, I cannot tell much or if there was indeed any difference in the sound. Surprised that the AK ones make an obvious difference though.

 

[maxxevv]

That's one way.

But I've also read threads about people just using it in regular PCM mode.

In fact, the AK4490 chipset allows you to do just that and you can turn it on in certain DACs (TEAC, for instance, pretty sure my RME ADI-2 allows it, too).

I find this all incredibly ironic because....

1. Analog "rewarded" tweaking because everything was so flawed. Take my turntable -- I can play with VTA, alignment, VTF, cart loading, etc, to the point of going schizo because all those things really do change the sound, sometimes massively, sometimes subtley, many very measurable. Tube rolling is similar.

2. Digital makes most of that go away. Yay...more time listening to music, in theory.

3. Oh no...gear slut audiophiles don't like 'set it and forget it'. They want to tune their digital systems in manners similar to analog by swapping in new gear.

4. The irony being that tuning is so much easier in digital via DSP/digital EQ....but many eschew it for reasons that seem mostly about dogma.

5. Double irony is if people want to tune digital systems and not use DSP, they should look at speakers and the speaker/room or headphone/ear interaction....which they mostly don't do.

As further evidence of all this, Mike Moffatt at Schiit has an interview on DARKO where he slams delta-sigma DACs because they don't leave room to innovate, AKA tailor the sound....

Its ironic indeed.

From a personal level, it doesn't matter if its "purist" or not, main thing is whether I can get the true content of the music when I want it. I'll decide the "colour" myself.

Back in the university days when I was listening out my PC and sound card, it was actually quite fun to be able to play around with the Creative sound card's environmental presets and make the speakers sound "bigger" than they actually are.

Of course, the sound processing wasn't quite that great but as things have progressed, and fidelity has improved to the point that it is now, think digital is the way forward and that the ability to tune via DSP according to the room's acoustics is the future.

And in the end, its all "coloration" so to say. As with some preferences for " warnth" and others for "transparency".

But in my opinion, the ability to faithfully reproduce the acoustic detail is the first priority.
As it allows you to "colour" the sound in whichever way you fancy down stream.
You can't do the reverse if the sound is already " coloured" straight of its data conversion process.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Was that absolute zero?

That would be the correct answer.

 

[Sal1950]

Well, this is an interesting turn of event. Jude post in that thread in head-fi that I am nwavguy. When I post my responde it says it is moderated! So I am going to post it here for people to see. It is very, very disappointing to see him go there.

Want to read a hoot? You and I were called every type of name, insulted, liars, alias for others, etc etc etc. That was all fine and good with the powers at HeadFi.
But today I received a PM explaining that one of my posts had been edited, they found the line,
"These are the people with real ears that know how to listen."
too "personal" and it was edited out of from my post.
The pettiness has fallen to a level almost unbelievable.
Edited post now exists here. LOL
thttps://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-571#post-14294527

Also as explained before I had already been locked out of that thread, why even bother with this Schitt? LOL

Hello Sal1950,

After it was reported by another member we've decided to edit your post in the Schiit Yggdrasil Impressions thread thread, quoted below, because a portion of it gets personal. We ask that you please discuss the gear, not the individual.

Thank you for understanding.

Best Regards,
The Moderation Team

hornytoad said: ↑

Are you the same person as manisandher over on Computer Audiophile ? He is from Britain and makes very similar statements regarding the Yggy .​

Are you that surprised the whole world doesn't think the Yggy walks on water?
Actually most of the recording professionals use much different stuff to monitor the music they create that your listening to.
I don't think you'll find a Yggy in 1 in 10,000 recording studios. Many that I'm familiar with use Benchmarks.
These are the people with real ears that know how to listen.​

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