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Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

Raindog123

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casts doubt on everything objective and therefore, by inference, on ASR


”Everything“ objective, says he…. Sounds like someone has skipped their “sufficient-vs-nessesary” formal-logic lesson. :) And the ASR reference is a nice touch too. :) Even if in jest. As I am sure there is a small army out there to run with this banner.
 

pkane

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”Everything“ objective, says he…. Sounds like someone has skipped their “sufficient-vs-nessesary” formal-logic lesson. :) And the ASR reference is a nice touch too. :) Even if in jest. As I am sure there is a small army out there to run with this banner.

Im just trying to bring this thread back on topic. Bring on the small armies, we can handle them ;)
 

Roland

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Reverting to the thread’s original premise: “There's very little difference between competently designed and adequately powered electronics (amps, DACs, streamers), and nothing audible in electronics that is unmeasurable”, has anyone provided evidence to support this hypothesis? I may have missed it.
 

Xulonn

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Reverting to the thread’s original premise: “There's very little difference between competently designed and adequately powered electronics (amps, DACs, streamers), and nothing audible in electronics that is unmeasurable”, has anyone provided evidence to support this hypothesis? I may have missed it.

Be careful about expecting evidence for negative vs positive claims.

I am not aware of any rigorously applied scientific double-blind testing that indicates super low-distortion audio electronics that demonstrates that differences CAN be heard. Bob Carver demonstrated long ago that the "sound signature" of an amplifier in a system can be duplicated by careful engineering and manipulation of components. This tells me that all high-end amplifier designers do not pursue perfect "fidelity" to the audio signal. Nor have I ever seen verified evidence of something proven to be audible to also be unmeasureable. Evidence is scattered throughout the published literature of the audio-related sciences.

With the general knowledge that human hearing is notoriously unreliable due to the effects of conscious and subconscious biases and other aspects of non-linear brain functions, I would ask you to provide evidence of an audio phenomenon that you believe to be not measureable. Otherwise your request can be classified as an "unrealistic question" (or an unrealistic "demand for proof" in the case of pathological audiophilia).

Other ASR members with more direct experience may, however, be able to give you some good specific examples that apply to your questions. .
 
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Andrew s

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A scientific theory can't be proven. The best you can do is show evidence of it being wrong to a sufficient degree that it is abandoned.

So to the case in point you would need double blind evidence of a sonic difference where no measured correlated difference could be found between the cases tested.

Regards Andrew
 

Frgirard

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A scientific theory can't be proven. The best you can do is show evidence of it being wrong to a sufficient degree that it is abandoned.

So to the case in point you would need double blind evidence of a sonic difference where no measured correlated difference could be found between the cases tested.

Regards Andrew
Your smartphone is an illusion and Perseverance on Mars a 3D film. :eek:
The science in the audiophile world is a game of slaughter
 

Raindog123

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A scientific theory can't be proven.

This is not quite true. There are different ways to formulate scientific hypotheses and/or theories. Eg, one can have a theory "I can get from here to there in 5 min" (or if you prefer "light has finite speed, and can get from here to there in 5 min") that can be proven by direct measurements. (And yes, a scientific 'theory' assumes certain level of complexity and comprehensiveness, but the testability/proof point still applies.)
 
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Wes

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Concordance with a hypothesis does not prove it.

What is meant above is that, formalistically, a hypothesis can only be disproven, not proven. Once a hypothesis has been subjected to every test imaginable over time, it is widely accepted. Same for a scientific theory (which term is being misused here).

When a theory has survived for centuries, but is later applied to a wider range of phenomena than was dreamt of it sometimes is found to be an approximation (e.g. Lorentz contraction).

Then there is the issue of thinking you have solved everything in a field of inquiry but are wrong. My best example here is in comparative anatomy, which has been a dead field for decades. No interesting research could be conducted because everything was known. Eventually the field transmogrified* into something new (biomechanics, which introduces physics to create a realm of functional biology). You can imagine the widespread horror when, just a few years ago, a gross anatomical structure was found that had previously gone undetected (for centuries or millennia, depending on how you count) - AND in the most heavily studied animal of all, the knee of the only extant hominid species. How could THAT have happened???

My point is that while we have quite good approximations of electronic effects on SQ, we have not conducted a thorough search of the state space with DBTs to warrant a comprehensive claim that every DAC or amp sounds exactly the same or has "perfect SQ." Whether someone is insane enough to spend $10,000 on some oddball unit is another matter of course.

* sensu Calvin & Hobbes
 

Andrew s

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This sis not quite true. There are different ways to formulate scientific hypotheses and/or theories. Eg, one can have a theory "I can get from here to there in 5 min" (or if you prefer "light has finite speed, and can get from here to there in 5 min") that can be proven by direct measurements. (And yes, a scientific 'theory' assumes certain level of complexity and comprehensiveness, but the testability/proof point still applies.)
We have different views of what constitutes a theory. Yes you can test specific statements but I don't consider these a theory
 

Raindog123

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@Wes
Again. A hypothesis: “I can get to my supermarket and back in under 20min”….. Done! Proven to be true. Nothing else to add…

@Andrew s
Yes we do. And I even don‘t mind, and want you to be right... But are you right? (In the ‘history of natural philosophy and theory of knowledge’ I took long time ago, they said something about when a theory is proven it becomes a ‘law’...)
 
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Pdxwayne

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@Wes
Again. A hypothesis: “I can get to my supermarket and back in under 20min”….. Done! Proven to be true. Nothing else to add…

@Andrew s
Yes we do. And I even don‘t mind, and want you to be right... But are you right? (In the ‘history of natural philosophy and theory of knowledge’ I took long time ago, they said something about when a theory is proven it becomes a ‘law’...)


Well, many can't pass the online 0.5db sound pressure difference test. It is proven over and over again they can't. But is it now a 'law' that says no one else can pass that test?
: P
 
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Andrew s

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@Raindog123 I take a physical theory to be a mathematical model of part of the world that makes predictions about measurable outcomes.

Saying the sun will rise tomorrow is not such a theory but the Newtonian model of the solar system is. As it happens after many years of proof and the adoption of Newton's laws of motion they proved to be wrong or more accurately as appropriately correct in weak gravitational fields.

In audio most of our laws are correlations without a physical theory to underpin them a kind if halfway house. So perhaps we are both right and wrong

Regards Andrew
 

Wes

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We are talking here about scientific hypotheses, not some claim about commute times.

A scientific theory is not a hypotheses, and differs from the common usage of the word "theory" which usually means nothing more than an idea.

Of course, if you don't think that words matter, then it doesn't matter.
 

Xulonn

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rdenney

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Well, many can't pass the online 0.5db sound pressure difference test. It is proven over and over again they can't. But is it now a 'law' that says no one else can pass that test?
: P

You are missing his point. A theory has to be so comprehensively predictive that it is accepted as a law—that’s a higher standard than “many”, and I’m not sure anything as variable as human behavior or cognitive performance could ever measure up to it.

But accepted theories must also provide an analytical reasoning that explains causation, it seems to me, not just empirical correlation.

Rick “settled science includes a lot of theories that have not been disproven despite a range of attempts” Denney
 

Wes

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law?

in science, a law is often not the same as a theory at all - e.g. Bergmann's Rule is a law, an empirical generalization
 

Wes

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No, accepted theories need not provide an analytical reasoning that explains causation, and can simply show an empirical correlation - but it helps

One always wants a mechanistic explanation for phenomena
 
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