Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

[mansr]

A single study? Which one? Surely the study wasn't biased in its aim or narrow in its ability to fully explain the phenomenon of the effects of placebo.

Here's one: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Here's one: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259

I don't disagree with that study. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I was talking about the effectiveness of placebo and how the power of the mind/belief in something can have real results that science can't currently explain.

If someone who has been suffering from arthritic knees for years and seeking treatment for pain relief and they undergo a sham surgery and the result is nearly as good if not the same as having an actual procedure -- doesn't that confirm my idea that the belief in something can be a powerful tool that we can't currently explain easily with scientific methods?

Without the intervention the person would still be in pain. It's their belief that something will come of it that affects their results.

 

[KSTR]

What exactly do I need to perform this? Does it require purchasing extra gear or components? Can I do it on my own or do I need to find someone to help? Sighted or unsighted doesn't matter?

There are only two basic requirements for meaningful blind A/B test at home with little effort other than time (rule #1: don't rush tests)

• Level match DAC outputs at 400Hz or so with multimeter to less than 1% (= ~0.1dB), set level to be about the loudest or typical comfortable you need, then don't touch anymore. Adjust playback volume in software player only.
• Blinding, the DACs must be locked away and be always on etc to avoid any cues, with one(!) single set of cables connecting this "black box", and a trusted person make (and note down) random decision every day which one gets connected to source and amp cables. The trusted person must remain fully anomymus during the test, you shall not have any contact whatsoever. There are many ways for hidden cues of many kinds so this needs full attention (not to be detailed for now).

Over the course of several weeks just do your normal listening and, after some time once you feel comfortable with the situation, make notes which DAC you think is currently playing, plus any other random notes, whatever comes to mind. The more decisions you have, the better. 20 is certainly the lower limit, so the whole thing will really take a month or so (unless you decide you can't identify the sound anyway and abort the test).
Comparing your notes with the random sequence then gives you an estimate how close you are with your result to pure random guessing. 18 or more correct decisions out of 20 is the goal as 10 out of 20 is identical to pure guessing, on average.

I can promise you that you will have a killer endorphine high if it turns out your impression have been correct within the limits of statistics (which is what I personally would expect in this case), that's a knowledge and experience nobody can take away from you plus it would be a great contribution, a serious data point for the community.

 

[gvl]

I have yet to come across someone seriously reporting being able to tell the DACs in a blind test, well executed DACs anyway, no NOS for sure. I know I tried casually and failed, while I think it is possible in some cases with more care my experience was enough to understand that the differences are very small to the point I no longer care.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Just for the record I have nothing against D-S dacs and would have very likely purchased a D90 had it not been for the chip shortages/unavailability.. and I'm sure my subjective bias and belief in my upgrade purchase would have alleviated my headaches. I have no way of knowing of course but that is certainly my suspicion.

That doesn't mean I might not have perceived a difference between the two without a proper dbt though.

 

[Rottmannash]

I'm simply making the observation that many people on this forum believe what the overlords here on ASR tell them regarding measurements/data and since they have neither the technical understanding nor the tools to independently verify the results they are subject to the same placebo effects.

Overlords?

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Overlords?

Lol, yes. I was being a bit facetious.

I was just saying that there seems to be a large percentage of forum members who rely on the interpretation of a small percentage on this forum because they lack the ability to independently verify the results. That is all.

 

[gvl]

Verify or interpret? I don't think there's a need for extra verification.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Verify or interpret? I don't think there's a need for extra verification.

I think you understand what I'm trying to say. You don't think that there is a significant number of people on this forum who rely on a smaller number here to inform their beliefs regarding audio?

 

[gvl]

I think you understand what I'm trying to say. You don't think that there is a significant number of people on this forum who rely on a smaller number here to inform their beliefs regarding audio?

Data and it's interpretation have nothing to do with beliefs.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Data and it's interpretation have nothing to do with beliefs.

I think that believing your gear is as good as it can be based on measurements alone, or that no sonic improvements can be made based on measurements alone, or the belief that differences between gear are inaudible past a certain point based on measurements, etc. requires the same belief that activates the same placebo effect as people who believe differently than you with a few caveats/exceptions. I think this is especially true for people who have no experience with the products they are being dismissive of. Simply looking at numbers and drawing a conclusion without experiencing it for yourself requires belief.

 

[mkawa]

Verify? Yes, let’s all spend 30 grand on an apx555 so we can independently reproduce these measurements.

because of Amir, many manufacturers are now advertising their product with measurements. Wolf and Amir help is verify those claims.

 

[gvl]

I think that believing your gear is as good as it can be based on measurements alone, or that no sonic improvements can be made based on measurements alone, or the belief that differences between gear are inaudible past a certain point based on measurements, etc. requires the same belief that activates the same placebo effect as people who believe differently than you with a few caveats/exceptions. I think this is especially true for people who have no experience with the products they are being dismissive of. Simply looking at numbers and drawing a conclusion without experiencing it for yourself requires belief.

I think we're testing patience of forum moderators by going off topic here. If you want to continue this discussion better do it in a new thread.

 

[Deleted member 31910]

I think we're testing patience of forum moderators by going off topic here. If you want to continue this discussion better do it in a new thread.

I'm just responding to those who have quoted me or asked me questions.

 

[KSTR]

Verify? Yes, let’s all spend 30 grand on an apx555 so we can independently reproduce these measurements.

Used older test sets (AP's or other well-reputed ones) go for less than 10% of that, often way less. Except for absolute top tier products those are still way good enough, though somewhat less convenient (no USB, digital I/O resctricted to 48kHz, etc). And a good soundcard like an ADI-2 Pro + REW as software as well is good enough for most anything here.
Operator knowledge, experience and ingenuity is far more important than test gear quality.

 

[Katji]

 

[raif71]

Anyone know what is the max output voltage via xlr ?

 

[Listentolearn]

Still, apparent performance no better than $90 D10, and arguably (imo) not much better - if any - than the $9 Apple dongle.. Look at all that grass! Why would anyone in their right mind pay $680 for this thing???

and therein lies the problem with measurements only. Do you believe these dacs sound the same?
If you listen to these dacs it would be obvious they don’t sound the same.
so something is missing (many things I think) in the measurements many think are so tell all.

of course if you never listen critically then yea, you saved yourself a lot of money.

 

[Kw6]

Hi Mistermuddles,

I recently acquired an Ares II and love it as well in NOS. Sounds more continuous and less digital. For now not talking about details soundstaging or bass. Vocals sounds more like coming out of a real person singing. My question is does moving up the line make any difference like going to Pontus II? John Atkinson of Stereophile says Ares II and Terminator measure almost identical. So does beefier power supply better caps and resistors make a difference? BTW I would to like to participate in a double blind listening test between Ares II and Topping D90!

 

[Deleted member 31910]

Hi Mistermuddles,

I recently acquired an Ares II and love it as well in NOS. Sounds more continuous and less digital. For now not talking about details soundstaging or bass. Vocals sounds more like coming out of a real person singing. My question is does moving up the line make any difference like going to Pontus II? John Atkinson of Stereophile says Ares II and Terminator measure almost identical. So does beefier power supply better caps and resistors make a difference? BTW I would to like to participate in a double blind listening test between Ares II and Topping D90!

I'm glad you like it. I really like mine too. I have never owned any other DACs from Denafrips so I cannot comment on any sound quality differences. I will say that many people start with the Ares II and like it so much they upgrade to the more expensive ones. I've heard a few people say the biggest jump is from Ares II to Pontus II and then after that the differences become smaller.

As for me I will be happy with the Ares II until I upgrade the rest of my system first.