Anti-vaxxer or Pro-vaxxer crap is not welcome here, regardless of your donor status.
Thus far, there is no proven benefit for tinnitus, but I am monitoring it closely.
- Rich
Anti-vaxxer or Pro-vaxxer crap is not welcome here, regardless of your donor status.
No way is the output of the compiler different in each execution of the compiler. It is not like the compiler has a random number generator to spit out different logic every time you use it. I have managed development of ASICs using both Verilog and VHDL and not once did I hear the need to compile multiple times because each execution generated different results. The whole world of ASIC/FPGA development would turn upside down if your compiler generated different logic constructs every time you used it.Verilog compilers can actually be non-deterministic, or so I've heard (supposedly due to random timing of parallel processes), though the output should obviously always be functionally equivalent.
That's not what I said. What I've heard, and it seems plausible, is that the exact gate layout can change run to run without altering the functionality. Consider a software compiler that emits subtly different instructions sequences on different runs. They don't (usually) do that, but they wouldn't be useless even if they did.No way is the output of the compiler different in each execution of the compiler. It is not like the compiler has a random number generator to spit out different logic every time you use it. I have managed development of ASICs using both Verilog and VHDL and not once did I hear the need to compile multiple times because each execution generated different results. The whole world of ASIC/FPGA development would turn upside down if your compiler generated different logic constructs every time you used it.
In Canada? No way. In Canada, if you enter a store and do not buy anything (read plunging 1000s of dollars) they have a repertoire how to get even.Measuring a dCS would definitely be nice.
By the way, aren't there shops where you can rent hi-end or pro audio devices for a day? I know it exists in Canada. That would perhaps be cheaper than shipping such machines.
That's not what I said. What I've heard, and it seems plausible, is that the exact gate layout can change run to run without altering the functionality. Consider a software compiler that emits subtly different instructions sequences on different runs. They don't (usually) do that, but they wouldn't be useless even if they did.
Someone far from anything audio related who was complaining about the Verilog compiler he was using being non-deterministic.Where did you hear this from?
I think the opposite. Paul won't lose many feathers in this fight because:
1. Amir is not using the latest firmware. That's enough ammunition to let old fox Paul to kill the review.
2. Much of the audiophile community is immune to these scientific reviews. I saw that when I put some links
in audiogon about the horrible performance of a Ayre dac, and people laughed at me.
https://insights.sigasi.com/opinion/jan/verilogs-major-flaw/Someone far from anything audio related who was complaining about the Verilog compiler he was using being non-deterministic.
Yet another one bites the dust. They can keep on fooling themselves but anyone who cares about Hi-Fi will not buy this DAC. Such a great time to be an audiophile where we can get data like this as well as go out and buy a reference DAC for a few hundred $ instead. LOL! I see all these companies as scammers and it's no use trying to explain to them or their followers as they clearly don't have the knowledge to understand. So far all these expensive DAC scammers have tried to convince their buyers otherwise but I think soon people will start to understand and then they will be forced to do better.
That's run time non-determinism, not compile time which is what PS Audio guy was talking about.
Yes, I understand. Then again, compile time is run time of the compiler so it could happen there as well, theoretically (and that would be a bug, in the end).That's run time non-determinism, not compile time which is what PS Audio guy was talking about.
That is a completely separate issue. To illustrate what we're talking about here, consider a trivial example such a two-input NAND gate. If we compile the equivalent Verilog or VHDL for a specific FPGA, the compiler is free to use any of millions of logic elements to provide this function. Supposedly, some compilers do not necessarily pick the same one on every run. A software analogue would be a compiler that uses different registers to hold a temporary value if run multiple times. The machine instructions would be different, yet the program would function identically.
With gcc, both for ARM and for x86 platform, I've never seen different binaries from different runs (after following the guidelines) but yes, theoretically it is possible.A software analogue would be a compiler that uses different registers to hold a temporary value if run multiple times. The machine instructions would be different, yet the program would function identically.
In Canada? No way. In Canada, if you enter a store and do not buy anything (read plunging 1000s of dollars) they have a repertoire how to get even.
That's because all these sites, audio marts, audiogone etc. are sellers' sites, practically, financed by sellers altogether. Sellers gladly pay the fees and in return the site will ban any whistle-blower who even just mentions Audio Science Review, for example. The way they do it works like this.
There are on-duty fraternity dudes on their forums, such as audio mart forums and others. As soon as you publish some inconvenient truth, e.g. these measurements by Amir, these on-duty dudes start dissolving the discussion to the extreme. There is not just one dude, there are at least a dozen at any point in time. You engage in discussions with this fraternity sticking strictly to the audio engineering subject, but they fry you so much so that after a while a moderator shows up and points to some dozens and dozens of so called "rules" (even Stalin's birocracy had leaner rules and regulations not to mention USA constitution). And long story short - you are banned. Used audio trading is the most lucrative commerce activity in the world, second to none. Audio marts allow sellers to sell the same unit many times i.e. mark them as "Sold" when in reality they are not sold of course (they charge exorbitant insane prices e.g. $100 less than suggested MSRP, which by the way, is always 20% higher than the true MSRP ).
Many other tricks are used. So called "Blue Books" are essentially written (read forged) by those same sellers. Buyers only came to senses in the last few years since Hifishark portal was launched (with the help of portal and extensive googling one can get a pretty accurate picture of true Sold prices).
Other sites are no better than audio marts and audiogon. Audioshark is as bad as it gets. Audioaficionado is a prime example what audiofoolism really is. Audioaficionado was created by a dude who is a softer version of Charles Manson. He has a herd of followers who all call him Master Lu. What Master Lu says is like a Bible. For example, Master Lu pronounced once that $18,000 for Accuphase E650 is a very good deal. And the herd followed their master's epistle to the letter (btw, the Japanese MSRP of this mediocre noisy amplifier is $6000, which in itself is 2 to 3 times more expensive that it should be, especially having in mind how high general prices in Japan are).
I have never seen a non-deterministic software compiler either. That was just a hypothetical example. I do know that HDL compilers use parallel processing to speed up the builds, and it's conceivable that they do so in a non-deterministic way. Again, that does _not_ mean that claims of differences in sound should be believed. As is so often the case with audiophoolery, the purported cause is (possibly) real whereas the effect is not.With gcc, both for ARM and for x86 platform, I've never seen different binaries from different runs (after following the guidelines) but yes, theoretically it is possible.
What do you mean? What would they do lmao.
That's run time non-determinism, not compile time which is what PS Audio guy was talking about.
Yes, I understand. Then again, compile time is run time of the compiler so it could happen there as well, theoretically (and that would be a bug, in the end).
I have no expertise in compilers other than gcc and there I have never encountered non-determinism (non bit-identical final executable), provided the build system is properly sandboxed and you have managed to find all the places where someone used __DATE__ and __TIME__ macros in their code.
I was assuming they used different build-time command line switches, different compiler optimizations, perhaps even different libraries (versions) linked in - some houses have a history of using progressively newer releases of libraries over time and keeping them around for regression testing builds.I have never seen a non-deterministic software compiler either. That was just a hypothetical example. I do know that HDL compilers use parallel processing to speed up the builds, and it's conceivable that they do so in a non-deterministic way. Again, that does _not_ mean that claims of differences in sound should be believed. As is so often the case with audiophoolery, the purported cause is (possibly) real whereas the effect is not.