Bose use Genelec

[skyfly]

For fun and to counterbalance unscientific anti-Bose.

+/- 0.1 dB driver matching (Source: a page claimed to be from a magazine, purchased for fun at a very cheap price at ebay. I do not guarantee that this ad is real.)

 

[richard12511]

For fun and to counterbalance unscientific anti-Bose.

+/- 0.1 dB driver matching (Source: a page claimed to be from a magazine, purchased for fun at a very cheap price at ebay. I do not guarantee that this ad is real.)
View attachment 113970

I find "0.1dB" tolerance hard to believe. That's 10x better than even Genelec and Neumann offer. Bose marketing says a lot of things that their speakers don't actually do.

I think Bose drew a lot of undeserved(imo) hate because of how bad their Acoustimass HT system was from a price/performance standpoint. I think most people acknowledge that they have some actual good products(lifestyle speakers, ANC Headphones).

 

[infinitesymphony]

Bose's target audience is regular people who trust them to deliver something better than average, and in many cases they deliver. One could argue they overdelivered on the headphone front when they targeted the ANC travel crowd, and as someone mentioned earlier their portable line-array PAs are surprisingly good for small to medium reinforcement. They tend to innovate on the design front rather than the materials front by taking a high-quality idea and seeing how inexpensively they can produce it. If that sets a baseline for the market, more power to them.

 

[ta240]

Note that this is how the speaker measures without the inline EQ that comes with the speaker and with which the speaker is intended to be used at all times

shhhhhhh, we pick and choose the 'science' we want to apply to our testing. Especially if it makes a product we know we won't like look bad. In fact, I think we accept anecdotal evidence if we really don't like a type of product.

 

[skyfly]

I find "0.1dB" tolerance hard to believe. That's 10x better than even Genelec and Neumann offer. Bose marketing says a lot of things that their speakers don't actually do.

I think Bose drew a lot of undeserved(imo) hate because of how bad their Acoustimass HT system was from a price/performance standpoint. I think most people acknowledge that they have some actual good products(lifestyle speakers, ANC Headphones).

I guess that ad was in the USA where there are plenty of law suits. Unlike a phrase in ad such as "this is the best I have seen," +/- 0.1 dB driver matching is fairly objective. A group of lawyers would have attacked Bose to earn money if the claim did not contain truth.

I do not remember the exact year, but Bose 301, 901, and Acoustimass were measured by Consumer Reports. They received good scores. The 301 received somewhat lower score among them.

 

[Sancus]

I guess that ad was in the USA where there are plenty of law suits. Unlike a phrase in ad such as "this is the best I have seen," +/- 0.1 dB driver matching is fairly objective. A group of lawyers would have attacked Bose to earn money if the claim did not contain truth..

If this were even remotely true, speaker manufacturers wouldn't constantly lie in their specs, but they do. Lies about sensitivity(Klipsch, Tekton) and flatness(f ex an AudioEngine speaker claiming +/-1.5dB measured at +/-3dB) are common. Not to mention, the above ad says driver matching but driver and final speaker performance are two very different things.

 

[richard12511]

I guess that ad was in the USA where there are plenty of law suits. Unlike a phrase in ad such as "this is the best I have seen," +/- 0.1 dB driver matching is fairly objective. A group of lawyers would have attacked Bose to earn money if the claim did not contain truth.

I don't think so. Many US speaker manufacturers lie and lie in a huge way with this exact spec. It's actually very common, and none of them have legal issues. Bose is also very well protected, legally. Very tough to win any case against them.

 

[richard12511]

I do not remember the exact year, but Bose 301, 901, and Acoustimass were measured by Consumer Reports. They received good scores. The 301 received somewhat lower score among them.

I'd love to hear the 901 someday. Very different approach to speaker design that could be fun to listen to, at least for a secondary system.

 

[skyfly]

If this were even remotely true, speaker manufacturers wouldn't constantly lie in their specs, but they do. Lies about sensitivity(Klipsch, Tekton) and flatness(f ex an AudioEngine speaker claiming +/-1.5dB measured at +/-3dB) are common. Not to mention, the above ad says driver matching but driver and final speaker performance are two very different things.

It is not a lie. The +/- .. dB value for an amplitude-frequency response curve depends on the choice of smoothing, for example.
Sensitivity rating depends on the bandwidth of the pink noise, the choice of room (anechoic, half space, certain 'typical' size room with cement walls, etc.)

 

[Sancus]

It is not a lie. The +/- .. dB value for an amplitude-frequency response curve depends on the choice of smoothing, for example.
Sensitivity rating depends on the bandwidth of the pink noise, the choice of room (anechoic, half space, certain 'typical' size room with cement walls, etc.)

You can call it a lie or you can call it contrived testing and semantics, either way, there's no way that ad meant the speakers were matched to +/- 0.1dB The absolute best(KH80 DSP), using modern DSP w/ tuning from extensively measuring each individual speaker achieve +/- 0.26dB.

 

[skyfly]

I'd love to hear the 901 someday. Very different approach to speaker design that could be fun to listen to, at least for a secondary system.

Kurz: Mit der Bose 901 Musik zu hören macht immer noch verdammt viel Spaß! (The last paragraph of the review of 901 VI, May 2013, Stereoplay)

Spaß means fun.

However, my experience with some Bose speakers including 901 was different. They were not always-fun speaker. High was somewhat revealing, making me sometimes not fall into music, depending on the recording quality of the music. It seems to be difficult to make a full-range crossover-less speaker sweet and refined yet not dull.

 

[skyfly]

You can call it a lie or you can call it contrived testing and semantics, either way, there's no way that ad meant the speakers were matched to +/- 0.1dB The absolute best(KH80 DSP), using modern DSP w/ tuning from extensively measuring each individual speaker achieve +/- 0.26dB.

The matching you mention about KH80 DSP is a speaker system containing tweeter, woofer, and crossover.

The matching in the ad is the matching of raw drivers to be put in one box.

[single type of drivers] vs [tweeter, woofer, crossover]

 

[Sancus]

The matching you mention about KH80 DSP is a speaker system containing tweeter, woofer, and crossover.

The matching in the ad is the matching of raw drivers to be put in one box.

[single type of drivers] vs [tweeter, woofer, crossover]

Yes, I know, I literally said that in my first post.

Not to mention, the above ad says driver matching but driver and final speaker performance are two very different things.

Anyways, I'm not really interested in going back and forth for another 20 posts about semantics, you can call it what you want. When marketers include dubious claims like this they are very well aware what they are doing(I assure you) and what they are doing is not trying to give the buyer useful and accurate information.

 

[skyfly]

You can call it a lie or you can call it contrived testing and semantics,

It is not a lie, because there is no law or regulation requiring that every one must measure and rate sensitivity the way Stereophile does. Klipsch' spec having different figure compared to Stereophile's figure does not indicate that one of the two parties is lying.

 

[skyfly]

The absolute best(KH80 DSP), using modern DSP w/ tuning from extensively measuring each individual speaker achieve +/- 0.26dB.

On what basis do you claim KH80 DSP is the absolute best?

Why do you believe that Neumann speaker achieve +/- 0.26dB as they advertise?

According to your other post [what they are doing is not trying to give the buyer useful and accurate information], the marketing department of Neumann is likely to give you inaccurate information.

 

[infinitesymphony]

It is not a lie, because there is no law or regulation requiring that every one must measure and rate sensitivity the way Stereophile does. Klipsch' spec having different figure compared to Stereophile's figure does not indicate that one of the two parties is lying.

It does if a party intentionally selects or massages data for the purpose of deceptive marketing. Do you think manufacturers like Klipsch and Bose are not capable of measuring their speakers with fine enough granularity to disprove the +/- 0.1 dB marketing blurb?

On what basis do you claim KH80 DSP is the absolute best?

Why do you believe that Neumann speaker achieve +/- 0.26dB as they advertise?

Neumann's reputation for posting accurate specifications has been confirmed by independent measurements.

 

[skyfly]

massages data for the purpose of deceptive marketing.

You are falsely assuming the existence of a reference in marketing sensitivity spec. Unfortunately, there is no reference everyone has to follow. You merely prefer Stereophiles' figure to Klipsch' figure. It is just your preference, and I respect your preference. Nobody is lying with sensitivity spec.

Neumann's reputation for posting accurate specifications has been confirmed by independent measurements.

The +/- 0.26dB pair match spec must be verified by a large sample containing multiple pairs of speakers, and the samples must not be provided by the manufacturer, because the manufacturer can select exceptionally good ones for the magazine test. I guess you probably did not see confirmed independent measurements that verifies the +/- 0.26dB pair match spec.

However, you are probably right about Neumann's +/- 0.26dB pair patch spec.

Anyway, it is clear that Neuman's +/- 0.26dB does not prove that +/- 0.1 dB in the Bose ad is wrong.

Unlike sensitivity rating,

+/- 0.26dB pair match spec is fairly objective as it is, and the manufacturer can easily be sued if it is wrong. In this sense, I think Bose ad's +/- 0.1 dB driver matching claim is very likely to be true.

On the other hand, it it natural that you suspect +/- 0.1 dB in the Bose ad. In the Bose ad, it reads "a degree of acoustical matching most engineers would have thought impossible."

 

[infinitesymphony]

You are falsely assuming the existence of a reference in marketing sensitivity spec.

The fact that there is no stated reference point is entirely my argument. I would argue that a layperson would not assume level matching could be limited to one specific frequency or impulse, for example, and it's highly unlikely that any set of 901s would be level-matched within 0.1 dB across the entire frequency range. I've never seen any measured speaker hit that spec. That's what makes it a useless spec at best, and deceptive at worst: there's not enough info to draw a real-world conclusion even though that's exactly what the marketing wants you to do.

 

[skyfly]

The fact that there is no stated reference point is entirely my argument. I would argue that a layperson would not assume level matching could be limited to one specific frequency or impulse, for example, and it's highly unlikely that any set of 901s would be level-matched within 0.1 dB across the entire frequency range. I've never seen any measured speaker hit that spec. That's what makes it a useless spec at best, and deceptive at worst: there's not enough info to draw a real-world conclusion even though that's exactly what the marketing wants you to do.

I guess, Bose' 0.1 dB is not pair matching tolerance. It is for the drivers for one left or right box. I also guess that it is for narrower band than 20Hz - 20kHz.

Anyway, as for Neuman KH80 DSP's +/- 0.26dB channel match, do you believe it is for 20Hz - 20kHz? Why?

 

[infinitesymphony]

I guess, Bose' 0.1 dB is not pair matching tolerance. It is for the drivers for one left or right box. I also guess that it is for narrower band than 20Hz - 20kHz.

If a speaker has a narrow enough production tolerance, any two speakers pulled off the line should be level-matched. That is part of the point of specifying tolerances, and why manufacturers like Neumann don't need to sell speakers in matched pairs.

Anyway, as for Neuman KH80 DSP's +/- 0.26dB, do you believe it is for 20Hz - 20kHz? Why?

No, because Neumann list that spec as being measured from 100 Hz to 10 KHz:

KH 80 DSP
Free field frequency linearity deviation between 100 Hz and 10 kHz: ± 0.7 dB
Reproduction accuracy between 100 Hz and 10 kHz: 100%, 80%, 50% of loudspeakers produced: ±0.26; ±0.23; ±0.17 dB