Looking for an upgrade over Sennheiser HD800. And then questions about objectivity in headphone evaluation

[Egoquaero]

Dears,
I love this forum, guys!
The Internet is like a pit of snakes when one looks for clear information and semi-objective reviews on audio equipment… Especially the audiophile world is so so so too much to take. It's like a microcosm that mirrors humanity as a whole.. The audiophile world reminds me of politics actually Low resolution thinking all over the place…
And that's why I'm so glad that there are people like amirm who adopts more scientific approaches with a certain degree of objectivity. Of course one can attack his methods of measurement or so but at least he's got methods. Well, thank you, amirm!

So I'm looking for an upgrade over my Sennheiser HD800.
No budget restrains for now.

EQ
I only listen to the HD800 with EQ. (I use Sonarworks). When I found out how EQ changed the HD800's sound, my eyes opened. It made me wonder why companies like Sennheiser would tune them so wrong. Why would they "make fun" of people? By letting them think that the HD800 are so "analytical", "hyper transparent" and blabla. While in actuality it's just treble enhancements and very little bass.
So it would be nice to have a pair of headphones that are enjoyable even without EQ. However I have the feeling that given my following requirements, this set of headphones is more of a utopia (and not the Focal ones). So, I'm fine with EQ-ing always.

BASS
I love bass. The optimal choice would be a set of headphones with good bass without EQ. But I have the feeling I'm asking too much here… So, I'm ok with EQ. It's a hustle, but sound quality is my top priority

SOUNDSTAGE
Hopefully the same if not bigger than HD800's soundstage. I can live with smaller soundstage if these potential new headphones excel in all the other areas


Few OPTIONS that come to my mind:

• Meze Empyrean: people love its bass. However I read that the soundstage is not as big a HD800's
• Heddphone: big soundstage. It might be a good option, I don't know. Sub bass present, but overall bass level is shy
• Audeze LCD-4: one of the best bass? A fun headphone even without EQ. Not great soundstage
• Something from Abyss: but I have the feeling that they're too thin sounding for my taste
• Focal Clear: good pre-EQ bass here as well. But overall it's probably not as tecnically good as the HD800. Smaller soundstage

So i guess my UTOPIA headphone would be something like:
Meze empyrean or Audeze LCD-4's bass + Abyss 1266 tc detail retrieval capabilities + HD800s soundstage


QUESTIONS:
1) EQUALIZATION
What are the limits to headphone equalization?
Say I equalize the HD800 mirroring (or getting as close as possible to) the frequency response curve of the Meze Empyrean (a headphone with a fuller, bassier sound than the HD800)… Do I obtain a Meze Empyrean with bigger soundstage? (since the HD800 got a bigger soundstage than Empyrean). What would be the difference between the two? (equalized HD800 vs non equalized Meze Empyrean)
There must be a limit to equalization right? Because otherwise one would just buy the headphone with the lowest distortion measurements and the biggest soundstage and just equalize it to mimic whatever frequency response curve (or flagship headphones) they like, right?


2) SOUNDSTAGE
How does one measure soundstage objectively?
How much of soundstage perception is specific to headphones' soundstage capabilities and not to their frequency response curves?

Coming across amirm comments about soundstage in his Hedd Heddphone review:
"What was remarkable was the improvement in soundstage. Without EQ, the response was maybe a bit better than a typical headphone with its center of your head response. With EQ, a larger bubble was created that started at your ears and travelled up 5 or 6 inches with instruments layering separately in that half sphere. This demonstrates that frequency response has a large role in sound stage even though people think this is a distinct phenomena. I think this has to do with the fact that lower frequencies tend to be more in mono and hence when they are exaggerated as they were here without EQ, they stepped on spatial cues in higher frequencies."

Mmm… But anyway there must be something else that determines soundstage capabilities besides frequency response curve, right? Something like the positioning of the headphone drivers in respect to your ears or the size of these drivers, right?


3) SPEED AND DYNAMICS
Again here, how does one measure speed objectively? Does speed even exist as a tool to judge audio fidelity?

Ethan Wiener says that only 4 factors determine high fidelity audio reproduction: noise, frequency response, distortion and time-based errors.
https://www.psaudio.com/article/audio-myths/

So is the concept of speed somehow a myth in audio?

Amirm about "speed" in the LCD X review:
"As for speed, it seems people confuse lack of bass with speed. Yes, if you take away the bass notes, the sound is flatter and seems to linger less. But that is just a frequency response error, not any kind of speed thing. The base notes all have the same frequency and move very slow anyway. If you sped them up, they would change their sound!"

Amirm's comments are somehow coherent to Ethan Wiener's line of thoughts. Considering Ethan's 4 variables, is the concept of speed only a matter of frequency response? Less bass = More speed?
And so… do headphones like the Abyss ab-1266 tc (probably the fastest and most articulate headphone in the world) sound fast just because they're very very thin (little amount of bass) sounding?

I'm sorry for my long and disorganized thoughts.. Audio is a lot to take. I hope you can help!
Cheers!
Egoq

 

[Jimbob54]

Read the reviews @amirm has done so far. The HD800S I think is pretty much the benchmark so far.

The Heddphone and LCD X come off badly, as does the Focal Clear, and some Abyss were mauled. So if I were you I would keep the HD800 as your reference and get a pair of closed back for when you want more bass out of the box. The Dan Clark Aeon RT gets praised here and the Ether CX Amir owns (hopefully will review soon) so a pair of his closed backs would serve you well as a counterpoint to the HD800.

TLDR- you're chasing ghosts, you probably already have the best for some of your requirements

 

[abdo123]

the HD800S have the lowest distortion measured on the forum so far (albeit it's a small sample size).

you can pretty much EQ it to taste. if you feel the sound is missing something.

 

[Moonhead]

There is no upgrade to HD800, but you can probably get a nice side dish, IMO.

 

[FrantzM]

As an owner of the HifiMan HE6 (original) and HE560 ... and a bit itching for the HD800, a bit, just a bit, I insist : a BIT!! .
....
Keep your 800.

 

[Hipper]

Firstly, headphone sound seems a very personal thing. I love my HD800 without EQ. I've never heard this treble peak that others write about. That maybe because I'm 67 and my hearing has deteriorated (it has. I can't hear over 10kHz and 6 and 8kHz are reduced). More recently I added some treble to improve percussion! I haven't yet applied the suggested EQ over the whole spectrum as I like what I hear but will give it a go one day.

Same with soundstage. This seems to depend on the source and your own perceptions/experience. I don't have a great feeling for it. My recordings are mostly studio bound pop. Recordings are also inconsistent in respect of bass and treble. Despite these inconsistencies I continue to enjoy the HD800 with all my music.

I changed the ear caps after a few years as they became softer with use and perhaps a bit uncomfortable. I didn't notice if that changed the sound but it did change the comfort factor of course.

How do you amplify your HD800. That may be a factor. And despite what others say (and I'm going to get flak for this but I don't care!) I found headphone cables make a small difference.

I'm intrigued by electrostats such as Stax but need to listen to them first as they seem to be an acquired taste.

 

[outerspace]

What are the limits to headphone equalization?

Distortions and high sharp peaks and dips (nulls) are the only limits.

Because otherwise one would just buy the headphone with the lowest distortion measurements and the biggest soundstage and just equalize it to mimic whatever frequency response curve (or flagship headphones) they like, right?

Yes, you can do it in many (if not most) cases. There was a tons of researches about this, ignored or rejected by audiophile community.

How does one measure soundstage objectively?

Soundstage is just frequency response component. In theory, the more headphones can activate or simulate your individual peaks and dips - the better will be soundstage. In practice it can be not significant factor and overall right FR can be much more important for sound quality and "space perception". Also you can try to copy all this individual "soundstage" things from one headphones to another by this simple method.

Again here, how does one measure speed objectively? Does speed even exist as a tool to judge audio fidelity?

Objectively there is no such things. All can be described in FR and distortions terms.

In addition I can recommend Sean Olive interview about headphones quality factors:

18:00 - about distortions
26:30 - about other factors besides frequency response
45:27 - about equalization of cheap headphones

 

[Jimbob54]

As an owner of the HifiMan HE6 (original) and HE560 ... and a bit itching for the HD800, a bit, just a bit, I insist : a BIT!! .
....
Keep your 800.

I cant speak for the HE6 but the HD800 maul the HE 560- totally different beast. Not really the same ballpark.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I would keep the HD 800s and look into the SD mod. I cringe to say it but there a guy on SBAF named, I think, Sodorjie who sells it. Takes around 5 minutes to do, zero risk, and completely reversible. It puts a helmholtz resonator in the cup to tame the 6khz resonance. Still need eq, though to remedy the diffuse field tuning. Sonarworks has two different eq's for it. The official one and a second unofficial which makes the bass flat at 20 hz at the price of some added distortion. I prefer the bigger bass one myself and damn the distortion.

 

[someguy1]

I'm going to partially respond as I actually was thinking about "speed" today (or how the term is nonsensical)

Let me start with
2) soundstage
"individual peaks and dips" - that kind of grasps it...
Distortion is also a factor but in the cheaper headphones (were it pins down the sound source to the driver)
"positioning of the headphone drivers " - that is a big factor, but it translates itself to FR (if you measure with an artificial ear)
Generally those dips and peaks are peculiar to an individual and narrow (too narrow for EQ, so you would need something like personalized X-Fi technology... please note that for most of the people that sounds bad, however there are mentions of "out of head" experiences)
But there is some "common ground". The very old FR responses from golden ears actually have some peaks marked at around 7kHz, 10kHz and 14kHz (maybe multiples of main peak at 3.5kHz?)
For instance a lot of headphones with "amazing soundstage" have very sharp peaks around 7kHz and above (HD800, AKG812, SE Master-1, Ultrasone S-Logic; unfortunately most of them are not well regarded due to treble boost, HD800 is the best of the bunch) and a lot of have lowered response in the area of 1-4kHz
I think there was just 1 cheap headphone where by using standard EQ (+3db at 8kHz) made a big diffrence the sound went from 2D to 3D: sometimes(in my experience) depth and positioning can improve (a bit), but I could not made anything wider sounding (I use only 10 band EQ, so not a lot of room here)

1) Equalization
There might be some other factors like: often people complain about ringing, but I don't know (some people mention reflections but that probably fall into the timing errors)

3) Speed
I regard this term also "nonsensical".
For instance the HD600 can produce 20kHz sound wave (at least 16kHz from FR) correctly, that is 20 oscillation per ms
Neurons in your brain fire up (from what I remember) at a rate around 5-25ms = that at least 100 times slower then the "speed" of the driver
I think to get a sound (not a pop/click) you would need few hundred ms (few thousands oscillations @ 2okHz).
Today I made a guess that "speed" probably has relation to attack/sustain/decay of sound, which is going to relate to FR in this way (my guess):
During the attack you have complex response in the attack phase (string pluck etc), that response is boosted if treble is boosted
During the sustain you have fundamentals + harmonics and maybe (also for instance) in decay you have for instance only harmonics
Which basically if you have a treble boost the short attack phase more pronounced with respect to the rest of the sound: making it sound faster

 

[outerspace]

There might be some other factors like: often people complain about ringing, but I don't know (some people mention reflections but that probably fall into the timing errors)

Some scientific stuff about "ringing" and Cumulative Spectral Decay (Waterfalls) in case of headphones as minimum phase devices.

 

[Egoquaero]

Thank you everyone for the replies so far!!

How do you amplify your HD800. That may be a factor. And despite what others say (and I'm going to get flak for this but I don't care!) I found headphone cables make a small difference.

I own a Chord Hugo 2 as a headphone amplifier.

Distortions and high sharp peaks and dips (nulls) are the only limits.


Yes, you can do it in many (if not most) cases. There was a tons of researches about this, ignored or rejected by audiophile community.


Soundstage is just frequency response component. In theory, the more headphones can activate or simulate your individual peaks and dips - the better will be soundstage. In practice it can be not significant factor and overall right FR can be much more important for sound quality and "space perception". Also you can try to copy all this individual "soundstage" things from one headphones to another by this simple method.


Objectively there is no such things. All can be described in FR and distortions terms.

In addition I can recommend Sean Olive interview about headphones quality factors:

18:00 - about distortions
26:30 - about other factors besides frequency response
45:27 - about equalization of cheap headphones

outerspace, thank you so much for your answer! You definitely hit my concerns at their core..


"Soundstage is just frequency response component."
Mmm.. isn't soundstage influenced by the positioning of the drivers too?
I have speakers in mind. If you place them further away from each other you tend to have a larger soundstage, right? And in this case, you didn't change the intrinsic frequency response curve to the speakers, you only moved them. Nobody opened them and re-tuned them right?


"the more headphones can activate or simulate your individual peaks and dips"
Could you elaborate more on this? What does it actually mean?

 

[Egoquaero]

Distortions and high sharp peaks and dips (nulls) are the only limits.


Yes, you can do it in many (if not most) cases. There was a tons of researches about this, ignored or rejected by audiophile community.

Read the reviews @amirm has done so far. The HD800S I think is pretty much the benchmark so far.

The Heddphone and LCD X come off badly, as does the Focal Clear, and some Abyss were mauled. So if I were you I would keep the HD800 as your reference and get a pair of closed back for when you want more bass out of the box. The Dan Clark Aeon RT gets praised here and the Ether CX Amir owns (hopefully will review soon) so a pair of his closed backs would serve you well as a counterpoint to the HD800.

TLDR- you're chasing ghosts, you probably already have the best for some of your requirements

Mmm... So you guys are all telling me that with my Sennheiser HD800 I can get a very similar sound quality and bass frequencies to, say, Meze Empyrean or Focal Clear just by equalization (if not better sound quality, since HD800's distortion levels are so low and its soundstage so good..)? Unfortunately I don't get to hear them in stores in the city where I live, that's why I'm asking here.

I don't quite get this.

Are all those youtubers and reviewers deaf or corrupt? Or are they all trapped in this same low resolution thinking reality/dream? How's that possible? It feels like a huge conspiracy
But aren't WE the ones missing anything here?

 

[solderdude]

So I'm looking for an upgrade over my Sennheiser HD800.
No budget restrains for now.

HE-1

Because otherwise one would just buy the headphone with the lowest distortion measurements and the biggest soundstage and just equalize it to mimic whatever frequency response curve (or flagship headphones) they like, right?

Some claim this actually is the case. I know it isn't true. There are certain aspects as resonances that are not as easy to kill.
The biggest issue is that a resonance shown on test rig A may not be at the same amplitude and frequency as on rig B and also not on your head.
There is no simple way to find out. EQ possibilities are limited. So are practical drivers in their enclosures (headphones)

2) SOUNDSTAGE
How does one measure soundstage objectively?

If someone new and could flawlessly replicate it, this would have been done and would be published and peer reviewed.
There are plenty of theories and ways that claim, and some times partly do, to do this.
Maybe your brain is not equipped for this (mine isn't and am not alone).
Perhaps headtracking + HD800S + smyth realiser or something may get you further.
Do not seek this in headphones themselves.
It has to do with FR evenness, your brain, angles of the sound arriving at your pinna and distance between driver and ear.

3) SPEED AND DYNAMICS
Again here, how does one measure speed objectively? Does speed even exist as a tool to judge audio fidelity?

Speed can be measured objectively but is not the 'speed' referred to listening to music.
That's where the discrepancy is and makes the term 'speed' as in music a non-sensical one.
Another word should be used. IME a boost around 1kHz to 2kHz range 'helps' with perceived dynamics and 'speed' but also other parts in the FR have to be co-operative. Having muddy bass and a peak at say 1kHz won't make the headphone perceived as 'fast' and dynamic despite FR being beyond 20kHz (so fast enough)

An even response and quick decay (so no strange resonances and lingering) can be open and dynamic sounding.

Dynamic is another thing. Strangely enough people find real dynamic recordings not dynamic but dull and boring when heard at a lower level.
Only at realistic levels it is found dynamic.
Dynamically compressed music is often found to be more dynamic because we can hear the decay better and hear soft sounds that would otherwise be below hearing limits at 'normal' listening levels.

I would recommend to try various headphones till you find one that sounds very close to what you want and see if you can make it even better with some EQ, headtracking or other trickery. What might work for another may totally not be what you are looking for... and vice versa.

 

[gvl]

If you want to try something different then maybe AKG N90Q? No need for a DAC, amp, or external EQ, all included. They go on sale for $300 every now and then, and are definitely worth trying at that price.

 

[Jimbob54]

Mmm... So you guys are all telling me that with my Sennheiser HD800 I can get a very similar sound quality and bass frequencies to, say, Meze Empyrean or Focal Clear just by equalization (if not better sound quality, since HD800's distortion levels are so low and its soundstage so good..)? Unfortunately I don't get to hear them in stores in the city where I live, that's why I'm asking here.

I don't quite get this.

Are all those youtubers and reviewers deaf or corrupt? Or are they all trapped in this same low resolution thinking reality/dream? How's that possible? It feels like a huge conspiracy
But aren't WE the ones missing anything here?

Well, I own the HD800 and the Clear , and a few others. Even when EQ to the same target I dont perceive them as the same, or better, or worse, just bring different attributes. But the HD800 might be my favourite. They are 100% the most comfortable. The 800/800S soundstaging/ imaging is the benchmark for many.

I suspect all you will be able to do is side-grade. Hence me saying get a good closed back. Maybe even a closed back planar- you get that quality of bass that planars and closed back are known for. I wouldnt get another open dynamic and hope for a vastly different set of qualities than the HD800. Doesnt matter who makes them. After EQ of course. Before EQ, the HD800 are a bit of a mess!

 

[dfuller]

Are all those youtubers and reviewers deaf or corrupt? Or are they all trapped in this same low resolution thinking reality/dream? How's that possible? It feels like a huge conspiracy

Sighted subjective reviews are a hell of a thing. The brain is very good at fooling itself.

That said, I have to wonder if there is something to the "slam" component subjectivists go on about - I wonder if that has to do with driver excursion? Might be totally off base here though.

 

[outerspace]

The biggest issue is that a resonance shown on test rig A may not be at the same amplitude and frequency as on rig B and also not on your head.
There is no simple way to find out.

You can copy your own resonances from one headphones to another by this simple method. We discussed this already, did you tried it? I agree there is can be a problems with nulls in some cases but they are not so frequent.

 

[Rthomas]

Dears,
I love this forum, guys!
The Internet is like a pit of snakes when one looks for clear information and semi-objective reviews on audio equipment… Especially the audiophile world is so so so too much to take. It's like a microcosm that mirrors humanity as a whole.. The audiophile world reminds me of politics actually Low resolution thinking all over the place…
And that's why I'm so glad that there are people like amirm who adopts more scientific approaches with a certain degree of objectivity. Of course one can attack his methods of measurement or so but at least he's got methods. Well, thank you, amirm!

So I'm looking for an upgrade over my Sennheiser HD800.
No budget restrains for now.

EQ
I only listen to the HD800 with EQ. (I use Sonarworks). When I found out how EQ changed the HD800's sound, my eyes opened. It made me wonder why companies like Sennheiser would tune them so wrong. Why would they "make fun" of people? By letting them think that the HD800 are so "analytical", "hyper transparent" and blabla. While in actuality it's just treble enhancements and very little bass.
So it would be nice to have a pair of headphones that are enjoyable even without EQ. However I have the feeling that given my following requirements, this set of headphones is more of a utopia (and not the Focal ones). So, I'm fine with EQ-ing always.

BASS
I love bass. The optimal choice would be a set of headphones with good bass without EQ. But I have the feeling I'm asking too much here… So, I'm ok with EQ. It's a hustle, but sound quality is my top priority

SOUNDSTAGE
Hopefully the same if not bigger than HD800's soundstage. I can live with smaller soundstage if these potential new headphones excel in all the other areas


Few OPTIONS that come to my mind:

• Meze Empyrean: people love its bass. However I read that the soundstage is not as big a HD800's
• Heddphone: big soundstage. It might be a good option, I don't know. Sub bass present, but overall bass level is shy
• Audeze LCD-4: one of the best bass? A fun headphone even without EQ. Not great soundstage
• Something from Abyss: but I have the feeling that they're too thin sounding for my taste
• Focal Clear: good pre-EQ bass here as well. But overall it's probably not as tecnically good as the HD800. Smaller soundstage

So i guess my UTOPIA headphone would be something like:
Meze empyrean or Audeze LCD-4's bass + Abyss 1266 tc detail retrieval capabilities + HD800s soundstage


QUESTIONS:
1) EQUALIZATION
What are the limits to headphone equalization?
Say I equalize the HD800 mirroring (or getting as close as possible to) the frequency response curve of the Meze Empyrean (a headphone with a fuller, bassier sound than the HD800)… Do I obtain a Meze Empyrean with bigger soundstage? (since the HD800 got a bigger soundstage than Empyrean). What would be the difference between the two? (equalized HD800 vs non equalized Meze Empyrean)
There must be a limit to equalization right? Because otherwise one would just buy the headphone with the lowest distortion measurements and the biggest soundstage and just equalize it to mimic whatever frequency response curve (or flagship headphones) they like, right?


2) SOUNDSTAGE
How does one measure soundstage objectively?
How much of soundstage perception is specific to headphones' soundstage capabilities and not to their frequency response curves?

Coming across amirm comments about soundstage in his Hedd Heddphone review:
"What was remarkable was the improvement in soundstage. Without EQ, the response was maybe a bit better than a typical headphone with its center of your head response. With EQ, a larger bubble was created that started at your ears and travelled up 5 or 6 inches with instruments layering separately in that half sphere. This demonstrates that frequency response has a large role in sound stage even though people think this is a distinct phenomena. I think this has to do with the fact that lower frequencies tend to be more in mono and hence when they are exaggerated as they were here without EQ, they stepped on spatial cues in higher frequencies."

Mmm… But anyway there must be something else that determines soundstage capabilities besides frequency response curve, right? Something like the positioning of the headphone drivers in respect to your ears or the size of these drivers, right?


3) SPEED AND DYNAMICS
Again here, how does one measure speed objectively? Does speed even exist as a tool to judge audio fidelity?

Ethan Wiener says that only 4 factors determine high fidelity audio reproduction: noise, frequency response, distortion and time-based errors.
https://www.psaudio.com/article/audio-myths/

So is the concept of speed somehow a myth in audio?

Amirm about "speed" in the LCD X review:
"As for speed, it seems people confuse lack of bass with speed. Yes, if you take away the bass notes, the sound is flatter and seems to linger less. But that is just a frequency response error, not any kind of speed thing. The base notes all have the same frequency and move very slow anyway. If you sped them up, they would change their sound!"

Amirm's comments are somehow coherent to Ethan Wiener's line of thoughts. Considering Ethan's 4 variables, is the concept of speed only a matter of frequency response? Less bass = More speed?
And so… do headphones like the Abyss ab-1266 tc (probably the fastest and most articulate headphone in the world) sound fast just because they're very very thin (little amount of bass) sounding?

I'm sorry for my long and disorganized thoughts.. Audio is a lot to take. I hope you can help!
Cheers!
Egoq

For the last 2 years I've been on a bit of a quest to find an upgrade to my HD800S + EQ to the Harman target.

So I think I can be of some help. All my impressions below are subjective. I'm 35 so I don't think I'm deaf yet

All comparisons below are with both headphones EQed to the Harman Target.

First I bought an LCD4, sent it to Austria to be measured and EQed to the Harman Target.

LCD4 with EQ was a marvellous headphone with better bass and ''perceived impact'' than the HD800S. So I sold the HD800S.

Then I bought a Focal Utopia and again EQed it to the Harman Target. I felt like the Utopia had slightly better clarity and imaging but the LCD4 has better bass for modern music.

What kind of music do you listen to? I think this is an important factor.

If you listen to a lot of classical, female vocals, folk, ''audiophile'' type music I think the Focal Utopia could be a contender.
If you listen to a good mix like hard rock, rap, EDM + everything mentioned above the LCD4 is a better all rounder IMHO.

Please note that going from the super comfy HD800S to the 700+ gram LCD4 may be quite an adjustment. The LCD4 was ok for me up to 60 minutes. My listening sessions are usually around an hour so this was not issue for me.

My current set up: Mjolnir Audio KGSSHV Carbon amp + SR009S (Again EQed to Harman target):

For me this system slightly beats the HD800S for classical, female vocals, folk, ''audiophile'' type music which is what I gravitate towards during my late night listening sessions (the only time I get to focus on listening to music in peace)

With the Stax system you get a slightly less impactful bass but you get very good clarity, vocals that sound beautiful and picking out each instrument in the mix is very easy.

Unlike most audio reviewers I don't gush over any headphone based on price. IMHO my Stax system is about 5% to 10% better than my HD800S. It also cost me 7 times more. I had the spare cash so I was willing to splurge for that tiny bit of extra performance.

If money is not an issue I would simply buy the Utopia, LCD4 & a Stax system and keep your favourite.

If you don't want to deal with all that hassle my recommendation is the Stax SR009S with EQ. It takes the best qualities of the HD800S just a bit further. Except soundstage. I think the HD800S still has the slightly better soundstage.

Hope that helped.

 

[Rthomas]

Also wanted to mention that two headphones EQed to the same target don't sound the same.

The HD800S with it's massive earcups and open design sounded different to the LCD4 with its super thick leather pads and sealed front volume.

Headphone construction, earcup shape and earpad design + materials all affect the sound.

Nobody can really predict what you will prefer. My No.1 recommendation is always find a dealer who will let you do a home demo of TOTL headphones. Then you can decide for yourself.