Looking for an upgrade over Sennheiser HD800. And then questions about objectivity in headphone evaluation

[jonfitch]

Yup, lots of electronic music. I believe it's the most demanding genre in hifi and definitely the one with the highest potential in music making. We're just starting to scratch the surface of this genre.


thanks mate for your opinion too!

Audeze LCD-4 vs Hifiman HE1000 V2
I live in Italy and it's not easy for me to get a pair of Audeze LCD-4 at a reasonable price.
All the prices are well over 5000 USD.
For Hifiman HE1000 V2 I have some contacts in China and I'm able to get them for only 1700 USD. So it's relatively a bargain.

Now.. my question would be... Say I equalize both of them to the Harman target (with bass frequencies raised a bit above flat), what would be the difference between the two? I guess LCD-4 is probably not worth 3300 USD more than the HE-1000 V2
1) Will the equalized HE-1000 V2 have similar bass impact to the LCD-4's? (and as a plus the Hifiman seems to have a better soundstage)
2) Does anyone know the HE-1000 V2's distortion performance?

1) The LCD-4 should have more bass impact. First it clamps a lot harder so you will have a much tighter seal, second the default earpads (leather) don't leak as much as the much more perforated earpads that Hifiman uses. You could get more bass impact with aftermarket pads with the Hifiman I guess, but some people don't like modding things physically.

2) It's doubtful you can really hear any distortion with drivers this big at headphone listening distance/levels. These planars are like loudspeaker sized drivers.

 

[Rthomas]

Yup, lots of electronic music. I believe it's the most demanding genre in hifi and definitely the one with the highest potential in music making. We're just starting to scratch the surface of this genre.


thanks mate for your opinion too!

Audeze LCD-4 vs Hifiman HE1000 V2
I live in Italy and it's not easy for me to get a pair of Audeze LCD-4 at a reasonable price.
All the prices are well over 5000 USD.
For Hifiman HE1000 V2 I have some contacts in China and I'm able to get them for only 1700 USD. So it's relatively a bargain.

Now.. my question would be... Say I equalize both of them to the Harman target (with bass frequencies raised a bit above flat), what would be the difference between the two? I guess LCD-4 is probably not worth 3300 USD more than the HE-1000 V2
1) Will the equalized HE-1000 V2 have similar bass impact to the LCD-4's? (and as a plus the Hifiman seems to have a better soundstage)
2) Does anyone know the HE-1000 V2's distortion performance?

Hello!

Hope you don't mind me asking.Can your contacts source a Susvara for me? If yes can you tell me the price?

Thanks!

 

[Egoquaero]

Hello!

Hope you don't mind me asking.Can your contacts source a Susvara for me? If yes can you tell me the price?

Thanks!

Susvara at 5300 USD. Less of a bargain I would say..

 

[outerspace]

Here you can download recordings of 3 equalized headphones (Takstar Pro 82 ($80), Creative Aurvana SE ($60), HiFiMan Sundara ($350)) and hidden original track, and compare them. All made on unexpansive artificial ear by youtuber "oluv's gadgets". How easy you identify hidden original? How big is difference? Despite of ~60 dB s/n and introducing a lot of distortions due to post-equlization, difference is subtle. In more controlled conditions the difference will be even less, if any.

 

[Egoquaero]

Here you can download recordings of 3 equalized headphones (Takstar Pro 82 ($80), Creative Aurvana SE ($60), HiFiMan Sundara ($350)) and hidden original track, and compare them. All made on unexpansive artificial ear by youtuber "oluv's gadgets". How easy you identify hidden original? How big is difference? Despite of ~60 dB s/n and introducing a lot of distortions due to post-equlization, difference is subtle. In more controlled conditions the difference will be even less, if any.

Mmm... but does this test even make sense? You're listening to the recordings through a fourth set of headphones. And this fourth set of headphones is gonna influence the 3 tested headphones' sound signatures big time right? And then we have to consider the microphone.. which might be the bottleneck...

 

[outerspace]

Mmm... but does this test even make sense? You're listening to the recordings through a fourth set of headphones. And this fourth set of headphones is gonna influence the 3 tested headphones' sound signatures big time right?

This is why original source track is included. When you listen original source track, you hear only distortions of your audio reproduction chain. When you listen recordings, you hear distortions of your audio reproduction chain with addition of distortions of tested headphones (and measurement rig). So when you compare recordings vs. original file you actually compare signal with distortions of recorded headphones vs. signal without these distortions. If your headphones and reproducing chain are good enough they will not mask any audible differences.

 

[bgtip]

You got it already, why search for something else:
The ultimate upgrade

 

[jonfitch]

You got it already, why search for something else:
The ultimate upgrade

That's weird, looks like the 8XX is tuned differently than the 800S? Wonder if this one will sound a lot more forward than the stock one.

 

[Jimmy]

I wouldn't consider a relatively minor difference in FR a true upgrade, even when Sennheiser released the HD800S, many people still preferred the HD800, as it upped transparency up a notch, and for me the Drop's variant is still an unknown factor until it ships and gets reviewed.

Anyway, for me HD800S (or its siblings), are not universal headphones, they perform spectacularly with well mastered classical music, and have a wow factor in the imaging and soundstage department, but I still find the good old HD600 more tonally correct, natural sounding and easier to listen to, so in the end the truth is that there's no headphone available that does everything perfectly, and having several pairs with different characteristics is still a good idea.

 

[garbulky]

Hi guys, I am tempted to jump on the HD800S for prime day if there is a deal. Is there a step up to this headphones for somewhere around the price?
I want the expansive soundstage (most important) and huge detail of the HD800s but I am hoping for an upgrade with a more extended bass in the lowest ranges. Keep in mind I don't want a bumped up bass. Just one that extends in a balanced way all the way down. I also REALLY want that expensive soundstage. Without it, there's no point. @solderdude do you have any feedback?

 

[buz]

You can always eq the bass. Soundstage is harder.

 

[solderdude]

@solderdude do you have any feedback?

Yes, EQ'ing the bass (and the remaining treble peak) is all that is needed.
You could EQ the upper mids dip if so desired.

The thing is IF you EQ it based on measurements and targets that are not what you are looking for then results may be 'poor'.
That, and people not willing or able to EQ and disliking the result or those applying 'incorrect' EQ have so much hate for the HD800(S).
They paid a lot and did not get what they wanted/intended.

Note that your idea of 'soundstage' may not be mine. The word 'soundstage' is kind of nonsensical to me, despite me using the description now and then. Soundstage is what I perceive with speakers. I can 'envision' a stage in front of me (highly room, recording, reproduction system and personal circumstances dependent) where I can literally point at 'things' on the stage.

For headphones I get a headstage. I tried some miracle programs that improved those aspects but took away other aspects that mattered more to me. For me sounds are always IN my head. Also with HD800. However, with some headphones the 'image' I get is more 'stable' or more 'pinpoint-able' or 'better separated' (as in less of a 'mixed blob') never projects forward to ME. In some cases I hear some natural recorded sounds well outside the 'headstage' though.

So when you are looking for that (more precision) and that brings you enjoyment than look for a HD800(S). When you are hoping for sounds to be more in front of you the results may be a disappointment. Some claim to hear sounds more around them (I envy them) if you are lucky and are one of them it may be what you are looking for. Hard to tell.

 

[Robin L]

Are all those youtubers and reviewers deaf or corrupt? Or are they all trapped in this same low resolution thinking reality/dream? How's that possible? It feels like a huge conspiracy
But aren't WE the ones missing anything here?

Yes.

More to the point: subjective reviews are based on the notion that our hearing is more sensitive than the gear used to measure audio gear.

The opposite is true.

Our sense of hearing is led by our brains. Mental states determine our perception of sound quality. $5 worth of the right psychotropic will do more for sound quality than $100.000.00 of accessories [cable, interconnect, cable lifters, a/c purifiers, etc.].

Being in love improves sound quality more than anything else.

You probably won't find anything better than Sennheiser 800s, properly eq-ed. Different? Yes. Better? No.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Firstly, headphone sound seems a very personal thing. I love my HD800 without EQ. I've never heard this treble peak that others write about. That maybe because I'm 67 and my hearing has deteriorated (it has. I can't hear over 10kHz and 6 and 8kHz are reduced). More recently I added some treble to improve percussion! I haven't yet applied the suggested EQ over the whole spectrum as I like what I hear but will give it a go one day.

Same with soundstage. This seems to depend on the source and your own perceptions/experience. I don't have a great feeling for it. My recordings are mostly studio bound pop. Recordings are also inconsistent in respect of bass and treble. Despite these inconsistencies I continue to enjoy the HD800 with all my music.

I changed the ear caps after a few years as they became softer with use and perhaps a bit uncomfortable. I didn't notice if that changed the sound but it did change the comfort factor of course.

How do you amplify your HD800. That may be a factor. And despite what others say (and I'm going to get flak for this but I don't care!) I found headphone cables make a small difference.

I'm intrigued by electrostats such as Stax but need to listen to them first as they seem to be an acquired taste.

i'm 68 and i do hear the overbright tuning of the treble, but the primary problem is an oil can resonance around 6kz which is actualy of very narrow Q and rather well damped. As a result it's excited only on some material and only if the tone to be reproduced 'hits the bull's eye'. Personally, I could have lived with it, if I could not have found a remedy. But of course there is a remedy,--either do the SD mod which is detailed by Tyl way back when he was writing for Head Fi. or just buy the 800S which employs the same helmholz resonator to counteract the 6k resonance in the Sennheiser's plastic cup housing. However, you;ll still need to address the diffuse field tuning (which makes the thing too bright and weak on bass overall) with a good eq.

If you do all that, you will get a reference grade headphone. Or you could just buy a Focal Utoipia and get a reference grade phone for 2.5 times the price right out of the box.

 

[solderdude]

Both the 800S and the HD800 Sorrodje mod don't solve the 6kHz peak issue of the HD800 entirely.
This will when EQ is not an option.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Both the 800S and the HD800 Sorrodje mod don't solve the 6kHz peak issue of the HD800 entirely.
This will when EQ is not an option.

The Dupont mod deals with the resonance in the plastic structure holding the driver which is exactly what it was designed to do. The rest needs to be addressed by eq to correct the tuning. And passive networks should work as well.

 

[solderdude]

The Sorrodje(Super Dupont) mod is a reverse engineered copy of the Sennheiser HD800S resonator fix that can be retrofitted in the HD800.
It just needs a bit more EQíng as the resonator can't get rid of it all.