Looking for an upgrade over Sennheiser HD800. And then questions about objectivity in headphone evaluation

[outerspace]

Also wanted to mention that two headphones EQed to the same target don't sound the same.

It's because the target should be measured with your own ear and with your particular headphones examples. And the second problem is positioning which can varies from on try to another which affect FR. And the third problem is the bias.

 

[Rthomas]

It's because the target should be measured with your own ear and with your particular headphones examples. And the second problem is positioning which can varies from on try to another which affect FR. And the third is the bias.

I also think there is a difference in presentation between headphone driver types. To me dynamic drivers, electrostatic drivers and planar magnetic drivers all present sound a bit differently.

 

[outerspace]

Mmm.. isn't soundstage influenced by the positioning of the drivers too?

Drivers positioning affect FR and therefore soundstage.

Could you elaborate more on this? What does it actually mean?

We have different ear shapes which causes different peaks and dips perceived on our eardrums.

 

[outerspace]

I also think there is a difference in presentation between headphone driver types. To me dynamic drivers, electrostatic drivers and planar magnetic drivers all present sound a bit differently.

Based on his researches Sean Olive said this doesn't matter. Only frequency response and audible distortions are important things.

 

[pwjazz]

Drivers positioning affect FR and therefore soundstage.

We have different ear shapes which causes different peaks and dips perceived on our eardrums.

Neat, this explains some things. Where did you find this?

 

[outerspace]

Neat, this explains some things. Where did you find this?

Just from some research paper. There is a popular explanation about this at rtings.

 

[Jimbob54]

Based on his researches Sean Olive said this doesn't matter. Only frequency response and audible distortions affect sound of headphones.

Yes, but different driver tech might inherently produce different FR and distortion characteristics? Yes, all that matters in the end is how it measures out of the box and if it can be EQ successfully. The discussion on the video seems to be someone asserting the construction materials affect the sound and Dr O is simply saying that, yes, but that is therefore accounted for in the measured FR.

 

[outerspace]

Yes, but different driver tech might inherently produce different FR and distortion characteristics?

My point (and point of Sean Olive) is FR and in some cases audible distortions are the only important things. Two headphones with same FR at eardrum and with distortions below audible level will sound the same no matter what they are made of. And you can get distortions below level of audibility even with $10 in-ears (Panasonic HJE120 or Sony MH755/MH750 for example) so you do not need electrostatics, planars or any other fancy or expensive technology to exclude this factor.

 

[304290]

I cant speak for the HE6 but the HD800 maul the HE 560- totally different beast. Not really the same ballpark.

I agree in reference to the 560 and 800 comparison. And because of that, I think the current price of the he560 is just about right. So not even the same ballpark when it comes to price either. But I can say the same thing of the he6 vs the he560. But I did upgrade years ago from to the he1000. But the he6 and hd800 does make for a an comparison.

The he6 had more impact, better midrange, and less harshness in the treble. But they are also much harder to drive which isn't a problem with "some" of todays headphone amps unlike it was when they first came out. The hd800s does have that "soundstage" that makes it hard to move on from for some. So I see them both as different flavors of headphone goodness and comes down to a preference thing. All my opinion of course. As far as upgrades, the only headphone I've owned that I see as a clear upgrade over both the he6 and hd800 are the he1000. But even that headphone blows neither out of the water while being much more expensive. The price performance ratio of the hd800 makes very difficult to beat. Ymmv of course.

 

[Rthomas]

My point (and point of Sean Olive) is FR and in some cases audible distortions are the only important things. Two headphones with same FR at eardrum and with distortions below audible level will sound the same no matter what they are made of. And you can get distortions below level of audibility even with $10 in-ears (Panasonic HJE120 or Sony MH755/MH750 for example) so you do not need electrostatics, planars or any other fancy or expensive technology to exclude this factor.

Have you spent any time listening to expensive headphones? ( $1000+)

Have you owned any of them?

 

[solderdude]

You can copy your own resonances from one headphones to another by this simple method. We discussed this already, did you tried it? I agree there is can be a problems with nulls in some cases but they are not so frequent.

Haven't tried it. Have played with WM61 stuffed in my ear (IMO better than mics that stick out somewhat in front of the ear)
Copying a resonance (or cone break-up or beaming) is one thing, removing it is another.
An in-ear mic isn't as reliable as one may think either.
Sure you can mimic a sound signature, after all FR is the most important factor, but how does one know what to copy exactly.
No measurement in the world is exact to start with. Then there are product variances that throw attempts off. Then there is headphone positioning, seal etc.

 

[solderdude]

I want to note that the angles in headphones are small, just a few degrees max. Also pinnae differ substantially so the effect one sees differs from person to person.
Also there is a sound pressure and the wave fronts are coming from the sides so pinna directivity effects are far, far removed from pinna research when it comes from around you and natural reflections happen which the brain (through visual input) kind of can 'take into consideration'.

 

[outerspace]

Have you spent any time listening to expensive headphones? ( $1000+)

I have huge local headphones/audiophile store (I suppose biggest in Europe) with testing room so I have listened headphones/dacs/amps that I don't even ever think to buy. And I think I was audiophile more or less. But this actually doesn't matter, because we talk about science, researches and correct tests.

 

[Rthomas]

I have huge local headphones/audiophile store (I suppose biggest in Europe) with testing room so I have listened headphones/dacs/amps that I don't even ever think to buy. And I think I was audiophile more or less. But this actually doesn't matter, because we talk about science, researches and correct tests.

Sure I agree with that approach as well. If a $20 dollar headphone can sound as good as my Stax system I would gladly sell it and use the money for something else .

In your opinion which are the best 2 or 3 headphones that you have heard? Did you get a chance to EQ them?

 

[outerspace]

Haven't tried it.

I can only suggest to try it. I was shocked by resulted similarity. You just need to made it very carefully and pay attention to phase with frequencies below 1000 Hz. There is a chance that WM61 stuffed in ear can't give you such result.

 

[Egoquaero]

For the last 2 years I've been on a bit of a quest to find an upgrade to my HD800S + EQ to the Harman target.

So I think I can be of some help. All my impressions below are subjective. I'm 35 so I don't think I'm deaf yet

All comparisons below are with both headphones EQed to the Harman Target.

First I bought an LCD4, sent it to Austria to be measured and EQed to the Harman Target.

LCD4 with EQ was a marvellous headphone with better bass and ''perceived impact'' than the HD800S. So I sold the HD800S.

Then I bought a Focal Utopia and again EQed it to the Harman Target. I felt like the Utopia had slightly better clarity and imaging but the LCD4 has better bass for modern music.

What kind of music do you listen to? I think this is an important factor.

If you listen to a lot of classical, female vocals, folk, ''audiophile'' type music I think the Focal Utopia could be a contender.
If you listen to a good mix like hard rock, rap, EDM + everything mentioned above the LCD4 is a better all rounder IMHO.

Please note that going from the super comfy HD800S to the 700+ gram LCD4 may be quite an adjustment. The LCD4 was ok for me up to 60 minutes. My listening sessions are usually around an hour so this was not issue for me.

My current set up: Mjolnir Audio KGSSHV Carbon amp + SR009S (Again EQed to Harman target):

For me this system slightly beats the HD800S for classical, female vocals, folk, ''audiophile'' type music which is what I gravitate towards during my late night listening sessions (the only time I get to focus on listening to music in peace)

With the Stax system you get a slightly less impactful bass but you get very good clarity, vocals that sound beautiful and picking out each instrument in the mix is very easy.

Unlike most audio reviewers I don't gush over any headphone based on price. IMHO my Stax system is about 5% to 10% better than my HD800S. It also cost me 7 times more. I had the spare cash so I was willing to splurge for that tiny bit of extra performance.

If money is not an issue I would simply buy the Utopia, LCD4 & a Stax system and keep your favourite.

If you don't want to deal with all that hassle my recommendation is the Stax SR009S with EQ. It takes the best qualities of the HD800S just a bit further. Except soundstage. I think the HD800S still has the slightly better soundstage.

Hope that helped.

Thank you mate for sharing your experience! Very helpful!
So let me explain more about my situation.
When I sit and listen to music, I only do it with speakers.
My room is treated with 8 gik acoustics tri-traps in the corners, 4 gik soffit and another 8 gik monster bass traps for early reflections
I have a pair of Neumann KH420 + two Klipsch 15 inch subwoofers (all connected to minidsp SHD for room correction).
I love headphones, but speakers just move me in a deeper way.
So the only time I use headphones is before sleeping, lying on my bed. (and when travelling)
My pillow probably messes up with the FR curve big time
Generally I prefer fun sounding systems. (but at the same time I don't want to renounce to high detail retrieval capabilities )
I listen to 50% electronic, 25% jazz, 20% classical, 5% rest (something like this). That's why I value bass quite a lot.
Audeze LCD-4 seems to be a good candidate. But yeah, here we go back to my initial question about equalizing the HD800 to the LCD-4 frequency response values. How will the equalized HD800 differ from the LCD-4? Will its bass feel way less lively compared to the one in the LCD-4 despite the matching FR curve?

 

[Egoquaero]

Drivers positioning affect FR and therefore soundstage.

We have different ear shapes which causes different peaks and dips perceived on our eardrums.

This makes so much sense... fascinating!

 

[Rthomas]

Thank you mate for sharing your experience! Very helpful!
So let me explain more about my situation.
When I sit and listen to music, I only do it with speakers.
My room is treated with 8 gik acoustics tri-traps in the corners, 4 gik soffit and another 8 gik monster bass traps for early reflections
I have a pair of Neumann KH420 + two Klipsch 15 inch subwoofers (all connected to minidsp SHD for room correction).
I love headphones, but speakers just move me in a deeper way.
So the only time I use headphones is before sleeping, lying on my bed. (and when travelling)
My pillow probably messes up with the FR curve big time
Generally I prefer fun sounding systems. (but at the same time I don't want to renounce to high detail retrieval capabilities )
I listen to 50% electronic, 25% jazz, 20% classical, 5% rest (something like this). That's why I value bass quite a lot.
Audeze LCD-4 seems to be a good candidate. But yeah, here we go back to my initial question about equalizing the HD800 to the LCD-4 frequency response values. How will the equalized HD800 differ from the LCD-4? Will its bass feel way less lively compared to the one in the LCD-4 despite the matching FR curve?

No problem

50% Electronic?

My strong recommendation is for the LCD4. Even with EQ the HD800S could not match the bass impact and weight of the LCD4.

The LCD4 with a bass shelf is addictive. I've not heard the Susvara but that should be competitive with the LCD4 as well as both are super low distortion planar designs which will be able to handle a big bass boost with no issues.

Headphones.com have a 365 day return policy. If money is not an issue get both + an HD800S, EQ all three to Harman Target and see which you prefer.

My bet is that you will pick the LCD4 or the Susvara.

Used LCD4s are available for around $2400 give or take $200. I think that's an ok price for the performance.

 

[jonfitch]

I've owned or listened to pretty much all of the TOTL headphones. The only thing that's really similar in terms of soundstage size to an HD800, but with more bass is gonna be a Hifiman Susvara or HE1000 in my opinion. Neither are obviously going to be cheap.

Audeze LCD-4 is a rich and meaty sounding headphone, but its very closed in with a in your face sound, and ridiculously heavy. The Focals all have very small soundstage as well, not to mention very narrow earpads that don't fit everyone.

 

[Egoquaero]

No problem

50% Electronic?

My strong recommendation is for the LCD4. Even with EQ the HD800S could not match the bass impact and weight of the LCD4.

The LCD4 with a bass shelf is addictive. I've not heard the Susvara but that should be competitive with the LCD4 as well as both are super low distortion planar designs which will be able to handle a big bass boost with no issues.

Yup, lots of electronic music. I believe it's the most demanding genre in hifi and definitely the one with the highest potential in music making. We're just starting to scratch the surface of this genre.

I've owned or listened to pretty much all of the TOTL headphones. The only thing that's really similar in terms of soundstage size to an HD800, but with more bass is gonna be a Hifiman Susvara or HE1000 in my opinion. Neither are obviously going to be cheap.

Audeze LCD-4 is a rich and meaty sounding headphone, but its very closed in with a in your face sound, and ridiculously heavy. The Focals all have very small soundstage as well, not to mention very narrow earpads that don't fit everyone.

thanks mate for your opinion too!

Audeze LCD-4 vs Hifiman HE1000 V2
I live in Italy and it's not easy for me to get a pair of Audeze LCD-4 at a reasonable price.
All the prices are well over 5000 USD.
For Hifiman HE1000 V2 I have some contacts in China and I'm able to get them for only 1700 USD. So it's relatively a bargain.

Now.. my question would be... Say I equalize both of them to the Harman target (with bass frequencies raised a bit above flat), what would be the difference between the two? I guess LCD-4 is probably not worth 3300 USD more than the HE-1000 V2
1) Will the equalized HE-1000 V2 have similar bass impact to the LCD-4's? (and as a plus the Hifiman seems to have a better soundstage)
2) Does anyone know the HE-1000 V2's distortion performance?