Gustard X16 Balanced MQA DAC Review

[Pdxwayne]

Could the fluctuations in uk mains voltage cause this? They are quite large, or maybe the regulation of the power supply per device? Non regulated would certainly be worse but even regulation has fluctuation doesnt it?

Hmm, if you are talking about the person who was going to return the x16, I also have such suspicion....But I am no expert...So, just suspicion about power, but is @gofry from UK?

Also, as measured by me, voltages output when being fed -16db from REW, X16 has the lowest output as compared to E30 and KTB across all freq range. So if @gofry simply switch inputs when doing listening comparisons, without voltage/volume match, it is possible that when using Yamaha own DAC, it is louder, thus X16 seems less clear as comparison.

Edit:
Here is my measurement table. Again, my multi meter is not accurate. Just consistent and can show a trend.

 

[Pdxwayne]

No mate everyone is in full agreement here

And no, testing NOS/ AKM super slow vs a non-broken filter does not prove anything. You're just empirically performing a frequency response test.. standardized measurements are far more reliable

Good, that is a good start from you. Agreeing that indeed DAC can sound different, when certain conditions are met.... : P

So, no longer everything is imagined, subjective placebo, right?

 

[Pdxwayne]

No mate everyone is in full agreement here

And no, testing NOS/ AKM super slow vs a non-broken filter does not prove anything. You're just empirically performing a frequency response test.. standardized measurements are far more reliable

In a more serious note, the ~2Khz lower voltage output of x16 is a bit concerning to me. KTB and E30 do not have that dip.

Assuming that that around 2khz x16 indeed have lower output and the difference is audible when playing music loud in a good stereo system, what would you listen for when doing listening tests?

I have mentioned differences in how the bagpipes high notes sound from E30 vs x16. Anything else?

 

[frankh]

In a more serious note, the ~2Khz lower voltage output of x16 is a bit concerning to me. KTB and E30 do not have that dip.

View attachment 111065

Assuming that that around 2khz x16 indeed have lower output and the difference is audible when playing music loud in a good stereo system, what would you listen for when doing listening tests?

I have mentioned differences in how the bagpipes high notes sound from E30 vs x16. Anything else?

Wow....Someone must have super golden ears to hear the difference of 0.003 dB assuming what you posted is in dB rating.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Wow....Someone must have super golden ears to hear the difference of 0.003 dB assuming what you posted is in dB rating.

No, in voltages. Measured with REW outputting -16db to DAC. I am using a tool that is not accurate, but consistent to show a trend. So, again, not accurate, but to show a trend.

 

[Veri]

Good, that is a good start from you. Agreeing that indeed DAC can sound different, when certain conditions are met.... : P

So, no longer everything is imagined, subjective placebo, right?

Sorry to disappoint but I was only agreeing with the double negation, I stand pretty firm in the belief that those differences we hear are largely imagined. That is if everything works correctly..

 

[Pdxwayne]

Sorry to disappoint but I was only agreeing with the double negation, I stand pretty firm in the belief that those differences we hear are largely imagined. That is if everything works correctly..

OK. Please explain to my why, when all DAC is at 0bd, when fed same -16db signals from REW, they all output different voltages? How would people not aware of voltage/volume match not hearing a difference when they simply switch DAC?

 

[ABall]

OK. Please explain to my why, when all DAC is at 0bd, when fed same -16db signals from REW, they all output different voltages? How would people not aware of voltage/volume match not hearing a difference when they simply switch DAC?

View attachment 111105

I think your ment to match the output voltage of the DAC not the source? This is what they mean when they say level match to do your blind testing. If you only level match the source your letting the DAC design dictate the final level.

 

[Pankar0]

Hello I need an explanation because I am a nubby with the head fi...
My current set up is the ifi idsd signature and my source is my Samsung smartphone ,
I m listening mostly Tidal mqa via the UAPP app.
I m planning to order the x16 for a desktop use.
The question is...
The connection with my smartphone.
The right way is smartphone to otg cable to usb cable to x16 usb... am I correct..??
Then I must use the UAPP app or I can use the Tidal app..?? Because the x16 doing full decoding..?? Which is the better way.
Thanks for your help and sorry about my poor writing skills.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I think your ment to match the output voltage of the DAC not the source?

Yes, you are correct. We want to match the voltages when doing blind test. But, in order to easily switch between DAC when doing blind tests, we also want to use same source signal strength.

That was why I used L30 to match E30 output to KTB when I did blind test. KTB can't adjust dB and it has the highest output. Thus need to use L30 to up the voltage of E30 when being fed same signals.

But, my point in my previous post is that DAC don't react the same to same source signals. Thus, if someone simply using an integrated amp to switch around sources to compare DAC, it is absolutely possible to hear a difference.

 

[ABall]

Yes, you are correct. We want to match the voltages when doing blind test. But, in order to easily switch between DAC, we also want to use same source signal strength.

That was why I used L30 to match E30 output to KTB when I did blind test. KTB can't adjust dB and it has the highest output. Thus need to use L30 to up the voltage when being fed same signals.

But, my point in my previous post is that DAC don't react the same to same source signals. Thus, if someone simply using an integrated amp to switch around sources to compare DAC, it is absolutely possible to hear a difference.

You have to match the voltage in the analogue domain, that way you keep the source level the same and you keep the digital attenuation at 0dB. If you attenuate in the analogue domain then your voltages will all be identical and you can do blind testing for what it's worth.
EDIT, if that's what your doing then someone needs to explain why the levels are different at various frequencies, my guess would be the tolerance of your measuring device?

 

[Pdxwayne]

You have to match the voltage in the analogue domain, that way you keep the source level the same and you keep the digital attenuation at 0dB. If you attenuate in the analogue domain then your voltages will all be identical and you can do blind testing for what it's worth.

Indeed, we want to match analog voltage out.

But the issue is that KTB and E30 and x16 at 0db do not have same analog voltages when being fed same signals. How would one match level during blind test if KTB can't adjust down and it has the highest voltage output? X16 and E30 already at 0db and can't go any higher?

 

[ABall]

Indeed, we want to match analog voltage out.

But the issue is that KTB and E30 and x16 do not have same analog voltages when being fed same signals. How would one match level during blind test if KTB can't adjust down and it has the highest voltage output?

They have to be fed through a gain control device. An amplifier with a volume pot for example.

 

[Veri]

You have to match the voltage in the analogue domain, that way you keep the source level the same and you keep the digital attenuation at 0dB. If you attenuate in the analogue domain then your voltages will all be identical and you can do blind testing for what it's worth.
EDIT, if that's what your doing then someone needs to explain why the levels are different at various frequencies, my guess would be the tolerance of your measuring device?

Indeed, we want to match analog voltage out.

But the issue is that KTB and E30 and x16 do not have same analog voltages when being fed same signals. How would one match level during blind test if KTB can't adjust down and it has the highest voltage output?

You need a voltage meter and adjust to nominal ~2V single ended output. These voltages you are measuring is something no one else is doing and are small enough (~0.5% or less) to be negligible and "normal". If it wasn't, the pro audio scene would lose their minds lol. It shouldn't be that hard to match two devices for identical listening setting :/

 

[Pdxwayne]

You need a voltage meter and adjust to nominal ~2V single ended output. These voltages you are measuring is something no one else is doing and are small enough (~0.5% or less) to be negligible and "normal". If it wasn't, the pro audio scene would lose their minds lol. It shouldn't be that hard to match two devices for identical listening setting :/

I know. But how often we listen to 2V? There is a reason why I output my source at -16 db when trying to voltage match.

I was trying to measure at kind of normal listening volume and matched voltages at 120hz.

A normal user who compares two DAC would use voltages way less than 2V....

 

[ABall]

Just to add to my last post, any old amplifier wont do, at differing levels the pot could produce an imbalance in the signal so as Veri pointed out you should realy be adjusting the source amplitude to voltage match the different

I know. But how often we listen to 2V? There is a reason why I output my source at -16 db when trying to voltage match.

I was trying to measure at kind of normal listening volume and matched voltages at 120hz.

Never but your doing tests.... you cant do blind testing by sending the same signal level to each DAC if each DAC has a different gain.

 

[Pdxwayne]

They have to be fed through a gain control device. An amplifier with a volume pot for example.

That was why I used L30 with E30.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Sorry to disappoint but I was only agreeing with the double negation, I stand pretty firm in the belief that those differences we hear are largely imagined. That is if everything works correctly..

II don't want to be polemic but I would like to understand.
If all dac are transparent, at least in the blu part of Amirm"s istogram, why someone would spend 450/500€ for an X16 (2nd in the graph) or 700/800€ for a D90/M400, when for 150€ I could buy an E30 (33rd in the graph)

I don't think the users have instrument as good as Amirm or Wolf.
If we have to talk only about "science" and not personal impressions, I think we must use standardised listen and best method as possible. So use wav files extracted in the best way possible, a free test one will be the best for all people; avoid bluetooth, airplay and similar quality loss method.
And so on...

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just to add to my last post, any old amplifier wont do, at differing levels the pot could produce an imbalance in the signal so as Veri pointed out you should realy be adjusting the source amplitude to voltage match the different

Never but your doing tests.... you cant do blind testing by sending the same signal level to each DAC if each DAC has a different gain.

Yup, as mentioned in one of my tables, I used L30 to level match E30 and x16 to KTB, at 120hz or 1khz.

Here it is again:

 

[ABall]

Yup, as mentioned in one of my table, I used L30 to level match E30 and x16 to KTB, at 120hz or 1khz.

Here it is again:
View attachment 111125

Do you get different readings if you do multiple tests? I know you said your meter isnt the best like a true RMS meter?