Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

[Cosmik]

Yes, some measurements are below the audible threshold, and Amir normally states that.

Not so fast. What is the definition of audible? No need to answer that. In another thread, Amir linked to a study that calculated that to be truly transparent in all conceivable circumstances the system needs to have a dynamic range of 120dB. There was some scepticism about this requirement, but in the end it was quite convincing. With noise-shaped dither, 16 bit audio can just about reach the requirement. But not if the DAC is only capable of 10-bit resolution (if that's its only fault!) - a rather huge shortfall.

 

[RayDunzl]

What is the definition of audible?

My definition of audible is "what I can hear".

A reference of little use to anyone else.

My ceiling fan has an audible 120Hz hum.

When I play music, it isn't audible, except when it is.

Same for the refrigerator, AC, dripping faucet, car driving by, lawnmower down the street, plane overhead, etc.

 

[Dismayed]

An engineer needs to build to a spec, so perhaps inaudible to 95% of the population is the target. Or 99%. But for “High-End Audio” it seems not to matter, so long as one can build a compelling marketing story and image.

 

[Blumlein 88]

An engineer needs to build to a spec, so perhaps inaudible to 95% of the population is the target. Or 99%. But for “High-End Audio” it seems not to matter, so long as one can build a compelling marketing story and image.

In some twisted sense, some high end devices appear to build for 100% audibility. Like say an SET amp built by eastern pacific monks.

 

[Candlesticks]

Anyone aware of the history of Changstar and SBAF can see the irony here.

RTaylor76 seems happy to spread bullschiit and Marvey doesn't even want to bother looking. The Sys review was highly positive except for the soldering in the teardown.

 

[amirm]

Anyone aware of the history of Changstar and SBAF can see the irony here.

What is the history? I saw that they abandoned changstar. What happened there?

 

[sssn]

Haha, ( moderator edit, removal of personal insult ) Why would NwAvGuy be jealous of Schiit? He didn't even want to make money with his O2/ODAC.
Apart from the fact that there is literally no reason why amirm would be NwAvGuy lol

 

[Candlesticks]

What is the history? I saw that they abandoned changstar. What happened there?

Links to Changstar or SBAF cannot be posted on Head-Fi. A long history between Marvey and Jude with extreme pettiness and an overall embarrassment that makes consumers worse of on Head-Fi and fosters hostility elsewhere. So SBAF is in many respects a counter-culture to the censorious dictatorship of Head-Fi as they would think of it. You'll see many users on SBAF talk about Head-Fi and the people there with contempt. They'll call it things like ad-fi and the posters sheep. They of course are part of an enlightened group at SBAF who have ears and have taste. In reality, SBAF is just like Head-Fi with a different hivemind. They've both got the same nastiness at the core, the same moderator approach and general hostility to differing outside opinion, as has been clearly displayed with the Modi 2 and Bifrost MB review.

They moved from Changstar to SBAF. It was meant to be a new place with a few less toxic people, hence SuperBestAudioFriends, of course if the toxicity comes from the seniors and thought leaders nothing will change.

Philosophically, the too subjective for objectivists and too objective for subjectivists is just subjectivity. They aren't interested in cognitive bias and methodology to minimize it but believe they've found some holy middle ground.

If they were actually interested in inquiry I wouldn't care but they don't seem to be interested. Exact same nasty, passive aggressive behavior as on Head-Fi to attack credibility and motivations. No interest in honest engagement. Marvey should know better than to accept what was said second hand by other people.

 

[PurpaSmart]

Just registered , Marvey and his entire website is devoted to shilling schiit and the HD650(Veiled and and no sub-bass) , I don't think they believe in measurements unless it makes the products they own look better, take anything out of his mouth with a grain salt.

 

[amirm]

Just registered , Marvey and his entire website is devoted to shilling schiit and the HD650(Veiled and and no sub-bass) , I don't think they believe in measurements unless it makes the products they own look better, take anything out of his mouth with a grain salt.

Welcome to the forum. Indeed the first time I went there I was overwhelmed with amount of Schiit gear and participation by Jason. So I assume they get the gear as loaner equipment. Per FTC rule in US, they need to state that up front in their reviews.

 

[Candlesticks]

Just registered , Marvey and his entire website is devoted to shilling schiit and the HD650(Veiled and and no sub-bass) , I don't think they believe in measurements unless it makes the products they own look better, take anything out of his mouth with a grain salt.

Their subjective impressions are beyond question even under sighted conditions without volume matching which they think is fine. You can apparently do that in their middle ground. You can even talk at length about the minute differences between boutique audiophile cables in the middle ground as well. I consider that to be some mighty cognitive dissonance.

 

[PurpaSmart]

Welcome to the forum. Indeed the first time I went there I was overwhelmed with amount of Schiit gear and participation by Jason. So I assume they get the gear as loaner equipment. Per FTC rule in US, they need to state that up front in their reviews.

They aren't going to that, let alone admit that there is a conflict of interest.

 

[Candlesticks]

Just registered , Marvey and his entire website is devoted to shilling schiit and the HD650(Veiled and and no sub-bass) , I don't think they believe in measurements unless it makes the products they own look better, take anything out of his mouth with a grain salt.

I don't believe Marvey to be a shill in any respect. I think it's very rare to ever find someone like that. To me it's friends, similar philosophy to Schiit and a desire to protect upon a perceived tribal front. Schiit and SBAF have a deep relationship which I think has significantly clouded their ability to be impartial.

I would also like to know if links to AudioScienceReview have now been banned on SBAF by Marvey. The posts by Marvey in this thread could be read like that.

 

[Jimster480]

Rather confusing.

Its not confusing at all. Simply the only truth which makes sense.
If subjectivists cannot trust their ears (like never being able to pass blind tests, or swearing about nonsense which isn't ever audible and they cannot prove to be audible) then why should anyone listen to their recommendations as it is literally the ESSENCE of making things up.

As I noted, the unit that I received belongs to another member. So I don't know its age but it is not new. As asked in one of Schiit threads on head-fi, they have not provided any information for people to know if their specific unit has the fix or does not.

I should also note that the glitch is but one of countless of performance issues with this DAC. Jitter and lack of linearity are serious performance problems. So even if the glitch is fixed, we are left with the rest of the problems needing fixing/explanation. Indeed I like to know if Schiit saw all of these problems after the initial design and chose to ignore them. Or never measured the device to know of these problems.

Marketing > Science for Schiit.
They know they will market whatever crap they are going to sell and that all the headfiers will eat it up. Especially with the administrative control going on over there. If you cant guarantee that you will get 90% + positive reviews and never allow reviews which are objective or technical to exist because those introduce real credibility issues.... then why would you need to spend time on product design? You can literally make any crap you want and then curate your way to success. In dealing with them over the last months, it was very evident to me that doubt and curation are their business methods.

Suggesting things like "dirty power" are just some of their tricks when "dirty power" basically doesn't exist in 99% of scenarios and modern day components are EFI shielded naturally.

Well, the "not worrying about it" is ours to decide, not theirs. I don't put any weight on reliability of their listening tests. Did they pick content where this kind of problem shows up? He says there was someone complaining about this in listening tests. Did they get the content from him and test?

I can guarentee you that this didn't happen. When I approached them even in private message about the issues I was expericing with their USB interface they weren't interested in how to reproduce it and were quick to jump all over me in making wild claims about the power in my house, my computers, laptops, operating systems, etc.
When I asked them directly about reproducing it they said that they had "hundreds of hours of testing and never saw the issue so its on my side".
Despite me being able to recreate it with 3 different physical pieces of schiit hardware on 7 different machines running 4 different OS's.... they were still uninterested.

This type of ideology shows that not only do they know the issues are there, but not only are they not going to fix them, they are just going to demean anyone who reports them or simply have their posts curated on one of the various forums where they control the flow of information.

This went all the way up the ladder to the headfi administrators who had the exact same childish replies and weren't even interested in instructions on how to cause the issue to happen. Instead I was berated, called a child and a crybaby and told I was jumping to conclusions. The administrators have been hiding like little girls for over 45 days now (this issue actually went on 120+ days ago) but I haven't made any leeway with anyone.
Between this forum and me going to CanJam its going to be an interesting year for these guys.

When these frauds have been exposed they won't be able to show their faces in a single hifi related place in the world, because everyone will know that they have literally been controlling the headphone scene for years by manipulating the flow of information and the opinions of enthusiasts in favor of brands that pay them. The sad part is that this sort of corruption goes much deeper than Schiit and with more measurements in time, the corruption will just continue to unfold.
There are actually a few topics on chinese forums discussing this exact manipulation in relation to brands which are "sponsors" on head-fi and a few other forums (like SBAF) where objectivity has been cast aside and even in some cases fake graphs have been made (or measurements have been done at a specific frequency that shows some performance characteristic they are trying to push in marketing).

 

[Jimster480]

I don't believe Marvey to be a conscious shill in any respect. I think it's very rare to ever find someone like that. To me it's friends, similar philosophies to Schiit and a desire to protect upon a perceived tribal front. Schiit and SBAF have a deep relationship which I think has significantly clouded their ability to be impartial.

I would also like to know if links to AudioScienceReview have now been banned on SBAF by Marvey. The posts by Marvey in this thread could be read like that.

Lmao they think @amirm is NwAvGuy just because he does measurements and understands graphs????? I guess I should buy an Audio Analyzer too, that will make me NwAvGuy too right? How many NwAvGuys can there be? Anyone who actually tests gear and understands performance characteristics are considered to be "listening with graphs"????
Their arguments are pretty damn poor lol

 

[mindbomb]

I don't believe Marvey to be a conscious shill in any respect. I think it's very rare to ever find someone like that. To me it's friends, similar philosophies to Schiit and a desire to protect upon a perceived tribal front. Schiit and SBAF have a deep relationship which I think has significantly clouded their ability to be impartial.

I would also like to know if links to AudioScienceReview have now been banned on SBAF by Marvey. The posts by Marvey in this thread could be read like that.

I assumed he had been formally acting as a brand ambassador for schiit for a number of years. He had a thread on head-fi about why people should avoid delta sigma dacs coincidentally started after schiit had announced the yggdrasil but before it was released. In that thread, he reassures people that glitching won't be an issue for schiit dacs https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tho...ink-about-stuff.693798/page-193#post-11387137

 

[Jimster480]

Are they really saying my unit is defective?

If your gear measures badly its always defective. That's the other classic technique of hifiscam brands.

Its actually sad to think about

The good news is Moffat offered to "fix" it. No charge if it is still under warranty.


Edit - Copy of Moffat's post below:
Source: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...n-robert-hunter.784471/page-449#post-14028674

"I hate to comment on any bad PR but make an exception here. First, I address the widely reported and endlessly condemned zero crossing "glitch" on earlier Yggydrasil DACs. It was (and still is) my opinion that said glitch was well below the threshold of audibility (> minus 116db). The results were dozens and dozens of posts by one bellyacher (on another forum) adjudging I was incompetent as an engineer. I then decided to address the glitch by adjusting the filter software. The result was no change in audibility. This change was implemented before the multibit Gungnirs and Bifrosts were introduced and that glitch is not applicable has never been involved in those products.

That said, I did read the review on the Bifrost linked above. It is quite true that the s/n + dist performance of a 16 bit DAC should be worse of than that of a 24 bit ds dac. How audible that is would be an interesting sound science experiment. We make 24 bit DS DACs with similar performance to the favored DAC of the reviewer. The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken. The differential and integral linearity of the AD5547 is 1/2 LSB, which makes its missing codes reconstruction suitable for weapons or medical, unlike ds, where the nunnery gets bombed or the prostate rather than the colon gets removed.

If I were working objectively and scientifically with another's component with such apparent anomalies I have several choices. The professional way is that I contact them, report my findings, and try to get to the bottom of what is going on. Even if one really disliks the person/people, it would be a probable sign of their perceived, accurately or not, inadaquacy as a expert to write "papers" or reviews with nothing but perjorative words, subjective negative cosmetic judgement, and grandiosity. In fact, I find it professional to never comment on anyone else's product ever. It is simply none of my business as a manufacturer. I am, however, not a reviewer. This one came out of the blue as a guerilla review I had no idea was in process. That said, at whatever risk, I have an obligation to repair the Bifrost's linearity, if it is indeed broken under warranty, gratis. If it is not, we will do so if desired at a nominal charge. From the tone of your review, it will do little to change anything, but my side of the street will be clean.

You know to it is difficult for me to understand how I attract such bitterness as well as those who adjudge me to be incompetent. I know I can be harsh and operate with my filters off frequently, but I have amassed too many colleagues in this industry to count, including those who value sound science with whom I have a relationship of mutual respect. I design equipment of all kinds, classic and contemporary, tube and solid state, analog and digital. I never recommend any of mygear to anyone nor make any sonic comparisons. I am genuinely proud to use and offer to others all of my gear. Believe it or not, I even enjoy some competitors' gear. I frequently attend live concerts and genuinely love my hobby. I can think of no other occupation I would find agreeable.

I have discovered that those who publicly disparage you can do as much for you as those who love you. If nothing else, they keep you in the limelight. Moffat's law number one says:

I could go off and wander around until God showed me how to make a perfect component and there would still be people who find fault with it.

The more they fault it the more they promote it. It absolutely does not hurt me. Thick skin I suppose. Some may imagine Schiit to be some huge company with evil corporate marketing looking to dominate a zero sum game. Nope – I am in this for my health. I have been doing it since the 1970's so I am obviously in it for the long run. It is far easier for me to repect and like my competitors than hate them. We need competitors. More and more makers, gear, and people involved. The more involved the lower the prices. No competitors means no shows, no forums, higher prices, and then no nothin' audio. This is exactly what is happening in High End Audio and why it will be gone soon after my generation is dead. This is not a devisive pastime unless you want it to be. If so I encourage you to take up politics.

Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar. I go to every (almost) Rocky Mountain AF, occasional Axpona Shows, and some local meets or SchiitKit shows. Let's meet up, shake hands, be cordial and air our philosophies either publicly or privately. Your call. I promise I to be well behaved verbally and I don't even care if you really think I am ugly or incompetent. This is all I have to say on this subject. No more posts – I will not be called out. I will let your posts stand on this thread (This thread is mine to moderate) as I really loathe censorship. If you wish to further communicate with me all about how stupid I am, how much my gear sucks, or any communication at all, I would encourage you to PM me, as any real or perceived negative Moffat stuff on this thread in particular will probably bode far less well for you than me."

Such jokes, suggesting that guidance systems are actually using chips like this because delta sigma isn't accurate.....
Its actually for processing an entirely different kind of data... This type of "inaccuracy" myth can only be created by people who have no concept of how computers and their hardware/software work.
Everything about his post shows not only the presumed ignorance of his followers but also a huge ego that he knows what he is doing and therefore his words will supersede measurements.
He talks about wanting competitors but they are actually doing exactly what he claims they are not doing, attempting to destroy all other audio brands in a zero sum game.
Through the control of information.

I say Moffat sounds like a nice bloke but the “ gorilla review” comment he made reveals just how insular the high end audio industry is, (so called) high end reviews are for promoting the products and are done hand in hand with manufacturers and they are a scam imo.

Why mr moffat can’t just post his own measurements is a little beyond me, we need another unit to measure..

Why battle measurements with word salad? Even if it’s nice word salad..

It’s my understanding all their units we have measured have given relatively poor results, were they all faulty units?.....

He wasn't aware of the review being done!!!!! In the world of Schiit when you have poorly measuring gear you have to "be aware" of the reviews being done. This way you can attempt to bribe the reviewer to make the review favorable before it is posted publicly to keep the status quo!

What you saying? That I should stop eating lobster and steak dinners so that I can afford to buy an ADC???

Buy the benchmark ADC, it has some of the best measurements right? Surely if we pitched in for such a device then these recordings could be a reality no?

It also seems clear that Schiit isn't going to do anything. I don't know why Moffat wants to meet in person but I doubt he has any interest in actually talking about the accuracy of those measurements online or offline.

It would be nice to get another Bifrost MB in at some point to put the final nail in this coffin.

I know someone who owns one, I will reach out to them and see if we can get it measured.
I will offer him one of my superior DAC's as a trade for the time being, and one of my favorite headphones which he also fancy's.

As is often the case with people who declare a love for laissez-faire it's only when it goes one way.



As I see it. It comes down to whether Schiit has interest in further inquiry of these measurements or not. If they are going to question their accuracy then supply reasoning and proof. My interpretation is they have no interest in doing this. They aren't going to post any internal measurements and if they think it's faulty then it better be faulty. It's probably not faulty. I don't think Mike Moffat has any particular interest in a continuing conversation and I don't think Jason wants one at all. I expect they'll stall and it will go nowhere.



The measurements being terrible doesn't matter as much as manufacturer honesty. If a manufacturer questions the accuracy of measurements but shows no interest in further inquiry then that should be considered suspect. The question is whether the measurements made are accurate or not. As it is at the moment multiple people questioned the accuracy of the measurements like AtomicBob but aren't interested in anything further.

Then I suggest we hold them accountable.
Measure every single piece of gear they have, make a website about it and advertise it on google with their keywords above their own results.
Headfi has ads from Google and others, we could even advertise there
Capitalism always wins on the internet.
I would definitely not mind putting some money down into a fund (which I'm sure will be cast as a "crusade") to show everyone the truth, so that those innocent "enthusiasts" who are really looking for the best gear for their money so they can enjoy their hobby can stop being robbed by a company interested in doing just that.
As more measurements are done, there will be a huge database built of gear and those mfg's which are honest will be glad from all the legitimate business they are getting from doing their jobs.

These types of scenarios have existed in the car world before and class action law suits against large performance part brands have happened. As brands will make "headers" or some "flash tool" and then claim it adds a bunch of power which they will verify with their own dyno only. Later on when someone else dyno's their car the mfg will claim that "every car is different" until there is enough evidence and then the mfg will start claiming "crusades" or some other nonsense... meanwhile they will take advantage of large groups of enthusiasts with fancy marketing.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Problem is that we both know you have absolutely no basis for that statement. You dont perform unsighted controlled tests. Your sample of one opinion is meaningless.

Oh God smh

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Noise due to computer activity. Specifically the sound becomes garbled during file saves. Photo file saves, not audio files.

Yes I keep hearing this being repeated. This is not a DAC problem. I understand that trying to explain this here is futile, so I will not bother.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes I keep hearing this being repeated. This is not a DAC problem. I understand that trying to explain this here is futile, so I will not bother.

So if DAC A lets computer activity bleed out audibly and DAC B does not, how is it not a DAC problem?