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If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

Sal1950

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I can only think of one real honest answer to "why not tubes"
11 channels of some fairly high power tube amps for my multich rig and my A/C bills here in the summer would be too high (hot) to handle. ;)
 

orangejello

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The self-noise of tube/tape tech meant that engineers/assistant engineers had to manually gain-ride, score in hand, in order to compress the signal without the artifacts of compression devices. This did not prevent clipping on peaks, but the combination of tube tech and tape tech resulted in a kind of soft limiting. I've owned and listened to most of the Living Stereo recordings and a lot of Decca/London and Mercury recordings from the era of early stereo, in early pressings, much of it via tube amplification. Also heard many of those recordings in their digital incarnations. The vintage tube gear I used for recording classical ensembles [Schoeps 221 microphones, Ampex MX-10 microphone preamp] would overload on peaks with big orchestra music. I didn't have to gain ride, recording to DAT, but I had to be careful setting levels. There were some recordings I made with these vintage tools, mainly of chamber music, where the results had a certain "glow", as it were, but that seemed to be the result of less treble, muddier bass and a "warmer" sound. However, I had better results with solid state gear for the most part.
Interesting. I too have a lot of these recordings in their first pressing incarnation as well their digital remasters. Some I cannot fault on any level. They hold up against the best digital recordings I have listened to. I am thinking of the Dorati recordings on Mercury. I have never heard a better recording of Ancient Aires and Dances for example. So I think tube recordings can deliver at a real high level. This even applies to extraordinarily dynamic and dense stuff like “Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima” a tube recording on EMI from 1959. Anyway, I guess that I am just taking issue with some posters that claim that tubes are inherently non-hifi. Might not be as accurate as the best ss stuff available today, but certainly not shabby.
 

Blumlein 88

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Interesting. I too have a lot of these recordings in their first pressing incarnation as well their digital remasters. Some I cannot fault on any level. They hold up against the best digital recordings I have listened to. I am thinking of the Dorati recordings on Mercury. I have never heard a better recording of Ancient Aires and Dances for example. So I think tube recordings can deliver at a real high level. This even applies to extraordinarily dynamic and dense stuff like “Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima” a tube recording on EMI from 1959. Anyway, I guess that I am just taking issue with some posters that claim that tubes are inherently non-hifi. Might not be as accurate as the best ss stuff available today, but certainly not shabby.
Those earlier Monophonic Mercury recordings were even better. I once had about 8 of the first 12 of those in great condition.
 

Wombat

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Interesting. I too have a lot of these recordings in their first pressing incarnation as well their digital remasters. Some I cannot fault on any level. They hold up against the best digital recordings I have listened to. I am thinking of the Dorati recordings on Mercury. I have never heard a better recording of Ancient Aires and Dances for example. So I think tube recordings can deliver at a real high level. This even applies to extraordinarily dynamic and dense stuff like “Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima” a tube recording on EMI from 1959. Anyway, I guess that I am just taking issue with some posters that claim that tubes are inherently non-hifi. Might not be as accurate as the best ss stuff available today, but certainly not shabby.

The suitable tubes are definitely hifi if the application is so designed.

An aside: During WW2, German submarines could receive communications from headquarters, using tube radio receivers, when 80 metres below the surface of the Atlantic ocean. Tube technology was very advanced by the time semi-conductors appeared.

Most members have a functional vacuum tube in their house, for now.
 
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Julf

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Most members have a functional vacuum tube in their house, for now.

Oh, the story of the Magnetron tube (and the "Rotterdam Device"). Microwave ovens are still called "magnetrons" in Dutch.
 

Wombat

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Robin L

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Interesting. I too have a lot of these recordings in their first pressing incarnation as well their digital remasters. Some I cannot fault on any level. They hold up against the best digital recordings I have listened to. I am thinking of the Dorati recordings on Mercury. I have never heard a better recording of Ancient Aires and Dances for example. So I think tube recordings can deliver at a real high level. This even applies to extraordinarily dynamic and dense stuff like “Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima” a tube recording on EMI from 1959. Anyway, I guess that I am just taking issue with some posters that claim that tubes are inherently non-hifi. Might not be as accurate as the best ss stuff available today, but certainly not shabby.
I recall "Ancient Airs and Dances" having audible tape intermodulation artifacts. Sonically, not one of my favorite MLP issues. I recall a number of "Living Presence" recordings having brief overloads on peaks. Even more RCA Victor Living Stereo recordings had issues with brief overloads on peaks. Mind you, most of the time, I was listening via Stax Earspeakers. Whatever Amir's measurements might say, the whole system of amplification and earspeakers from Stax were excellent tools for hearing distortion artifacts back in the 1990s.
 
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pma

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If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

1) Very high input impedance. 1Mohm in a real circuit without smallest problems, so one can connect virtually anything without loading.
2) Very low input capacitance. No issues with nonlinear input capacitance like in JFETs.
3) Very high output voltage is possible, like 20Vrms, if needed.
4) Very good immunity to EMI/RFI.

If it is not a "silly" design, insertion of the tube stage into the chain is inaudible.
 

Wombat

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If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

1) Very high input impedance. 1Mohm in a real circuit without smallest problems, so one can connect virtually anything without loading.
2) Very high output voltage is possible, like 20Vrms, if needed.
3) Very good immunity to EMI/RFI.

If it is not a "silly" design, insertion of the tube stage into the chain is inaudible.

The world has moved on. I am a Luddite in some technical ways but won't pay excessive prices for inferior specs of tube gear, even so-called modern good ones.

Point 1. Irrelevant - 10:1 ratio works just as well in modern gear. Are there 1 megohm inputs on mainstream audio devices?

Point 2. Is easily possible in SS.

Point 3. Oh, yeah? Low signal tube circuits are typically high-gain, high impedance, devices requiring careful consideration in this respect.

Your view on tube electronics certainly doesn't seem to accord with mine, limited though it might be.

P.S. I am also an EE. We did tube electronics as subjects for the degree, back then. FWIW.
 
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orangejello

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I recall "Ancient Airs and Dances" having audible tape intermodulation artifacts. Sonically, not one of my favorite MLP issues. I recall a number of "Living Presence" recordings having brief overloads on peaks. Even more RCA Victor Living Stereo recordings had issues with brief overloads on peaks. Mind you, most of the time, I was listening via Stax Earspeakers. Whatever Amir's measurements might say, the whole system of amplification and earspeakers from Stax were excellent tools for hearing distortion artifacts back in the 1990s.
I don’t like headphones generally and don’t use them (after several tries). So maybe some of these artifacts are below the resolution threshold of my system. Even though I understand in theory what IM distortion is, I really wouldn’t know what to listen for to detect it. As for peak overloads, you are right - I have heard a few of those on that recording. After I got my NAD M22 v2 I was pleased that they became a lot less obvious though. I guess I liked the performance so much that I tended to overlook those things.
 
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orangejello

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Those earlier Monophonic Mercury recordings were even better. I once had about 8 of the first 12 of those in great condition.
I wish I hadn’t been such a stereo bigot - I was fascinated by imaging early on in my hifi interest. Those mono Mercs were ubiquitous back in the 80’s in used record stores. Don’t know how many I passed over. I even passed over some mono versions of Blue Note recordings! Now days some of my favorite recordings are the Blue Note monos.
 

Robin L

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I don’t like headphones generally and don’t use them (after several tries). So maybe some of these artifacts are below the resolution threshold of my system. Even though I understand in theory what IM distortion is, I really wouldn’t know what to listen for to detect it. As for peak overloads, you are right - I have heard a few of those on that recording. After I got my NAD M22 v2 I was pleased that they became a lot less obvious though. I guess I liked the performance so much that I tended to overlook those things.
I don't listen to too much from the acoustic era, but I still listen to a lot of transfers from the early electrical era. Performance is more important than sound quality up to the point where there's more noise than signal. In any case, being a recording "engineer" [recordist is more accurate, photographers are not called "Photographic Engineers", after all], I made a point of having very transparent playback gear in order to insure higher fidelity in my recordings. As I was essentially learning on the job, the results had an obvious learning curve. Still, hearing more of what was happening than what most people could hear turned out to be useful, particularly when digitally editing complex music.
 

levimax

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And good mono can image better than expected, actually.

If I am really in the mood to listen to some Mono I "Sum to Mono", disconnect one speaker, move the other speaker to the center, sit back and enjoy a different type of experience. No "mental fatigue" from my brain trying to create a "center" image or being distracted by weird stereo mixes. I find my older recordings made before stereo existed work best. Mono is not my favorite for all kinds of music but for something like Julie London singing with a guitar accompaniment it is my favorite. Voice in the center with guitar slightly off to the side.... for me a more realistic "image" than stereo. Getting back to the thread all recorded with tubes but that really makes no difference.
 
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watchnerd

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If I am really in the mood to listen to some Mono I "Sum to Mono", disconnect one speaker, move the other speaker to the center, sit back and enjoy a different type of experience. No "mental fatigue" from my brain trying to create a "center" image or being distracted by weird stereo mixes. I find my older recordings made before stereo existed work best. Mono is not my favorite for all kinds of music but for something like Julie London singing with a guitar accompaniment it is my favorite. Voice in the center with guitar slightly off to the side.... for me a more realistic "image" than stereo. Getting back to the thread all recorded with tubes but that really makes no difference.

Have you tried using a true mono cartridge?
 

ModDIY

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Mono with or without tube ??

Here is the question !! :cool:
 

MakeMineVinyl

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="Robin L, post: 605064, member: 9433"Sonically, not one of my favorite MLP issues. I recall a number of "Living Presence" recordings having brief overloads on peaks. Even more RCA Victor Living Stereo recordings had issues with brief overloads on peaks.

This overload problem had to do with the NAB equalization curve used on American tape machines. NAB had a 5-6dB pre emphasis boost in the bass region, and the metering on the machines did not reflect anything but the flat response of the input signal. So if the program material had anything with bass (like a fff bass drum whack), the tape would saturate with no warning from the meters. European machines use the CCIR (IEC 1; as do most all tape machines now) curve which does not have this bass pre emphasis so this is much less of a problem for instance on current 15ips tape releases.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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If I am really in the mood to listen to some Mono I "Sum to Mono", disconnect one speaker, move the other speaker to the center, sit back and enjoy a different type of experience. No "mental fatigue" from my brain trying to create a "center" image or being distracted by weird stereo mixes. I find my older recordings made before stereo existed work best. Mono is not my favorite for all kinds of music but for something like Julie London singing with a guitar accompaniment it is my favorite. Voice in the center with guitar slightly off to the side.... for me a more realistic "image" than stereo. Getting back to the thread all recorded with tubes but that really makes no difference.
Indeed, listening to mono with only one speaker is really the way to go. I do it all the time.
 
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watchnerd

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No I haven't gone that far.... I am assuming "sum to mono" is almost the same thing.... I know it isn't but it is easier and cheaper.

I've done both.

There is a difference, mainly because the cartridge can't detect signals vertically thus lowering distortion, but it's a subtle improvement.
 
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